Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Gun Fighting => Topic started by: Ed Giglio on February 21, 2005, 03:33:34 AM

Title: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Ed Giglio on February 21, 2005, 03:33:34 AM
Hi all,

just finished watching "Man on fire" with Denzel Washington and had a couple of questions regarding bullet wounds.

In the film Denzel gets shot by 2x 9mm rounds without having too much affect on him (or rather not as much as I've seen on other films). Now, I know it is just a film but I remember on one of his seminars in the UK that Hock mentioned something about the low "stopping power" of small calibre bullets such as the 9mm.

What I wanted to know is if there is a breakdown of statistics for different calibre bullets regarding their "stopping power".

Thank you.


Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Contractor on February 21, 2005, 05:20:06 AM
Dr. F????????, sorry I can't remember the name co-authored a book ???????, can't remember the exact title.  Something to do with Gunshots or Wound Ballistics.

This covered both ER reports of survived wounds as well as autopsies of fatal wounds.

Massad Ayoob (I am sure I got that wrong) Has several articles and books on police shootings.  Well studied and informative.

9mm is like the 5.56 (M-16 / M-4 family).  Light weight high velocity.

Then there is the .45 or 7.62 in a rifle.  (I know I am missing many calibers - so don't everyone jump.  This is just an example)  Slower and heavier.

Each has it's pros and cons.  I personally favor the "big bullets make big holes" side of the camp.  Shot placement is the key.  And smaller caliber weapons are usually easier to control.

There is no "magic" or "silver" bullet.  There are multiple reported shootings where the bad guy took a large caliber round and kept fighting, even 12ga. slugs.  Then there are the single .22LR shots and the guy drops dead.

The Human body is an amazing thing.

The famous "Miami Shootout" 1986 is a good study.  Many tactical errors were made, but the point I want to make is that the suspects both were hit fatally and continued to fight, until a head shot was delivered to the last one. 

This goes with your other post, and mine as well.

Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Professor on February 21, 2005, 06:18:19 AM
Many people will reference the following:

by Evan Marshall, Edwin J. Sanow, EVAN P. MARSHALL

Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Deadeye Dave on February 21, 2005, 10:49:25 AM
 What's Wrong With the Wound Ballistics Literature, and Why.,  by Martin L. Fackler, et. al.

Doctor Fackler's methodolgy has been criticized, probably by the same people who wrote the original wound ballistics literature...
Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Contractor on February 21, 2005, 11:56:21 AM

Nothing is wrong with the book, I just could not remember Mr. Fackler's name.   Thank you for posting the name of the book.  I would recommend it to anyone who owns a firearm.  I would also recommend to read and study as much as you can, and continue to do so.  The better informed we are, the better decisions we can make.

Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: kayakpirate on May 01, 2005, 04:33:52 PM
While loads like the .40 or .45 may have an edge over the 9mm due to its size.The difference isnt really that profound in light of the engineering involved in the manufacture of the bullets today. The 9's bad rep mostly comes from the days of fmj ammo and when hollow points were basically fmj's with holes in them. The best 9's run around 91% of stops in gunfights.
The .357 runs 96% the .45 gets about 94% on the street. I dont think that if you put a
 9mm +p in  an attackers upper thoracic cavity he'll be able to tell the difference.
Shot placement is what counts.Shooting at the range is good for basic training.When your warmed up and comfortable its easy to shoot the larger weapons. Ask yourself, can I use this weapon with either hand if I'm wounded? Can I control this weapon one handed? You're responsible for where your rounds go. So make sure you use something you have confidence
in hitting with under stress.
Run in place ( NOT HOLDING THE LOADED WEAPON ! )as fast as you can for a minute, crank out 50 push ups. Then jump up and do a double tap,two handed, then single weak and single strong. If your making valid hits, its a good choice.
As far as cailber goes, Wild Bill was known for using the old .36 navy in his early days.
He always said, "Fast is fine,but accuracy is final".
Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Contractor on May 03, 2005, 11:12:29 PM
Yes the 9mm has come a long way with modern bullets.  Two pros for the 9mm are it's low recoil and high magazine capacity in a small package.  The low recoil translates into easier follow up shots, easier one-handed operation, and easier training (especially with beginner shooters)

However to rely on ANY particular caliber of bullet to function as it was *designed* to is not a sure bet.  Bullets perform wonderful when fired into gelitin under lab cond.  But when fired through different materials at different angles to reach the gelitin or BG they often perform differently.

Test have shown modern hollow points becomming pulgged with drywall, cloth, ect and failing to expand - turning that high speed wonder bullet into a FMJ.

IMO the key is to find the largest caliber that you can comfortably shoot, and shoot well under any circumstances.  If that is 9mm fine, if you can handle a .40 or .45 then go for the larger one.

Handguns are not like rifles in that even with impressive velocity they still rely on mass more than anything else to get the job done.
Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: kayakpirate on May 04, 2005, 07:29:28 AM
Without a doubt go with the largest caliber you can handle. But some people take that to mean something they can handle,"when the lights are on". Under stress that can be a different situation.In all honesty, Nothing,including rifles, always works.
Many people buy somethng thinking that, becausce its uses a big bullet, it will answer all problems.
This really isnt the case. Lets face facts,when the caca hits the fan anything can happen.
The deep penetration crowd talks about people "bleeding out" like game animals.
The mid size caliber people talk about energy.We really are talking apples and oranges here.
They both work,they just use a different mechanisim.
The big companies have been aware of the " plugging problem" with hollowpoints for a while now.Most of the better designs work around this .No, of course no magic bullet works all the time regardless of if that magic is hollowpoints or size and weight.
My academy class had quailifaction targets that had the entire upper body as the 5 ring.This made it easy for those who couldnt shoot to get their qualification score.Thereby getting them the hell out of the way that much faster so the next class could step in. But it made me wonder... is this what the stats are basing  the non stop shootings on? Of course a 9/40/45
through the ribcage wont always produce a stop.But the same round through the sternum could produce a stop more often. After years of this debate I have seen a certain amount of consumer jumping. Meaning that, well think about it.The gun companies sell guns, the bullet company sell bullets. They make a huge sale to a number of depts.Sales get a little stale,they invent a new round or platform for another round and SELL everyone on the idea that the old
package isnt good anymore. people get all excitied, and Sig, Glock,whoever...has a new
contract with x-number of depts. selling their new answer,and happy days are here again.
Once the civilian market sees the cops switch, they( a lot anyway) switch as well. Remember folks,to them its a business.They make money on people wanting the best. Nothing wrong with that.Till it starts to cloud the issue.
The old saying,"Beware the man with one gun" tells us something.
Use what you know you can shoot well.If you've got the walking dead strolling though your fire
you probably wont stop them any faster with something thats really only marginally better.
Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: Contractor on May 04, 2005, 11:28:49 AM

You are completely correct.  "If your build it, they will buy it" should be the motto.  I mean what the hell is the .45 GAP?  I think what we are both getting at is that a hit with anything is better than a miss with the latest and greatest "one shot-stop" round.

Title: Re: Bullet wound statistics
Post by: kayakpirate on May 04, 2005, 03:10:28 PM
We get so obessed with the forest that we miss the trees.
I was so freaking dissappointed with Glock for inventing a new round that does the same thing at twice the cost,I couldnt believe it.
As I sit here my my old G-17( purchased in 1987) is nestled not too far away.
I have loved Glocks since the get go. The 21 failed to thrill me. Too big, The 40's are cute and all. But I really wanted a Glock single stack full size .45 acp Instead they came out with everything but. I'm not sure...but I think they're doing this just to vex me...
What have I ever done? So I went and got a G-19,just to keep em guessing,the bastards.