Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 03:29:29 PM

Title: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 03:29:29 PM
 I use the concept of JKD... a number of styles and use what works best for me. I have never trained in a style called JKD because it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 04:42:35 PM
I use the concept of JKD... a number of styles and use what works best for me. I have never trained in a style called JKD because it doesn't exist.

Why would you say that JKD does not exist?
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 05:12:35 PM
 Ok, JKD as Lee conceived it doesn't exist. JKD as the cash cow( is or was thought to be) people involved with Lee turned it in to exists.  Even Inosanto only billed it as JKD concepts, I believe. Not as a style. He does claim Jun Fan Gung Fu. Since it was never really a set of techniques to its' creator, it can't really be a set of techniques now.

 
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 05:18:37 PM
Interesting.

I wonder, would you kindly cite where your authority to make such statements derives from? If you have never trained JKD, and are not affiliated in any way with any JKD associations...where does your information on this topic come from?

Are you citing magazines, other instructors, websites, etc.?
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 05:25:48 PM
 Simple question:  Did Bruce Lee create JKD as a fighting style with set techniques or as a concept of studying everything and taking what works for you?  Answer: Concept.  Thought that was common knowledge.

 
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 05:27:23 PM
That didn't answer my prior set of questions, Wardog.
Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 05:39:26 PM
I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

Bruce Lee


   That is a Lee quote. He does, unfortunately, use the word style but he clearly does not mean it is a system, organized institution, or set of techniques. That is one quote. But it pretty much says it all.

Title: Re: Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 05:40:38 PM
 Oh, and to answer your question, my authority is derived from the authority.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 05:47:35 PM
Then do you believe that there is a difference between doing JKD and say........doing karate, Filipino MA, and Thai boxing?

In other words....are there core techniques and strategies that Bruce Lee focused on or can you just do whatever you want and still call it JKD?
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
 He trained what he had found to be best at the time. But, in my opinion, you can do anything that WORKS for you and call it JKD. In the sense that you prescribe to the philosophy and/or concept of JKD. To say your style is JKD would be incorrect. Lee had core techniques he used and strategies he focused on but they only subscribe to the JKD concept because they worked for him best at the time. He would have shed any and all if he stumbled across anything more effective for him. So, there are no set techniques or strategies just the best ones for the person.

  In a sense Hock is a major JKD proponent. He shows you techniques he has found to be best. He would never suggest you not use a technique that works for you, if it wasn't of his teaching. Now in his system you would have to rank using his techniques but his philosophy is pure "use whatever you can kick ass with consistently".
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 07:32:57 PM
Inspired by Hock, I no longer teach JKD. Like he says, I teach "Generic" self-defense applications, running folks through the bare necessities of surviving conflict.

However, I do disagree with Wardog. There are key components to JKD that many people simply do not understand if they have not trained it. Wardog, I do agree that for the most part JKD is conceptual...however without these key components there is no such thing as JKD.

Intercepting Broken Rhythm, The Hammer Principle and maintaining the Fighting Measure in the sense that Lee trained his instructors are key elements. Without understanding them and utilizing them...you are just doing what works best for you, as Wardog states. 
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 07:59:39 PM
Intercepting Broken Rhythm, The Hammer Principle and maintaining the Fighting Measure in the sense that Lee trained his instructors are key elements.

without these key components there is no such thing as JKD.-KM



 There is no such thing as JKD as a style so these things are irrelevant. If a technique works better for someone than any of those then it would be substituted.  I understand that you trained in JKD and that for the style(which never should have existed and really does not as tied to Lee) they are essential. I will not argue that. My argument is that as a system with the name JKD, heavily tied to Lee, it is fraudulent. He never intended it as a style. If you call it My Kwan Do and make those specific techniques the base, fine, but it never should have been called JKD because it isn't.

Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 07, 2008, 08:04:01 PM
You and I will have to politely disagree. It must be called something.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Wardog on October 07, 2008, 08:22:16 PM
 Mr. Miller  -we agree to disagree.  Have a nice evening.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on October 07, 2008, 10:39:35 PM
Wardog-you quoted Bruce saying "use the boat to get accross but then dont put it on your  back" or words to that effect
My question what happens if you leave the god dam boat and come to another river??
Swim?
How about drag the boat with you or improvise and dont get caught without a paddle-
In other words  sir-use what ever is available to come home a winner in H2H combat

whitewolf (el  lobo blanco) ;D ;D


Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Hock on October 08, 2008, 08:36:31 AM
I think that people like to work on that collection of Bruce lee tactics and drills that Lee seemed to show almost everyone as a foundation for improving his and everyone's skills.
This collection has become what folks now call Jeet Kune Do. People like to do these. And they do help almost everyone at least understand what and what does not help. lee operated in a certain framework which is a zen riddle. A framework that is not a framework - so everyone can argue forever.


Its all like a Zen parable really. What is Karate with a small 'k"?

If you see the Bhudda on the side of the road?..... Kill him.

Hock
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Milldog1776 on October 08, 2008, 11:53:18 AM
I think also that some people get so obsessed with that structure, that any deviation from it is considered taboo.

One of the other reasons I no longer teach JKD is I just can't handle the "politics" involved with most organizations. The third reason is that most people just can't do JKD, and as an instructor...there's nothing more frustrating.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Martin25 on January 26, 2009, 06:40:10 AM
Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, interpretations

Hi guys
I posted this on another forum in an attempt to give a very basic outline of the interpretations existing on JKD today. (references and thanks to David Cheng,Tim Tackett,Jason Korol)This is a very basic outline are there things that I should add?



The Seattle Era

I thought it may be useful to outline some of the basic differences in the interpretation of JKD.

The Seattle Era
The first era in Seattle began in 1959 when Bruce Lee taught his Non Classical Gung Fu informally to a small group of people including Jesse Glover his first student and Assistant Instructor. The training consisted mainly of Wing Chun based techniques and included other techniques forms and elements from a few Chinese martial arts.
This group incuded,Skip Ellsworth, Joseph Cowles, James DeMille, and Ed Hart  to name a few as noted students.

The Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute Seattle was the place where the formal foundation of Bruce Lee's martial art was established in the early 1960s.
Students are taught basic kicking,punching, footwork, trapping,chi sao and energy sensitivity,wooden dummy set,Si Lim Tao. There is a lot of emphasis on physical fitness training with equipment and sparring. Theories such as simplicity ,directness and economy of motion are taught. Bruce Lee's philosophy is taught.
Bruce Lee formally made Taky Kimura his Assistant Instructor, who taught the classes under his supervision after Bruce moved away.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Oakland Era (1964) This is the place where Bruce Lee changed his original Wing Chun based methods and added ,western boxing, fencing ideas, kickboxing and sparring. This is the time that he first called his art "Jeet Kune Do".
Bruce was greatly influenced by James Yimm Lee's emphasis on weight training. He made James his Assistant Instructor at that kwoon. Bruce also began emphasizing more conditioning and made changes in his own training after his famous fight with Wok Jak Man.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Chinatown Era (1967)
This is the place where Bruce Lee integrated his martial art and developed his "way of no way". However he still taught the best way he knew how to to punch, kick, intercept, stop hit, 5 ways of attack. He introduced full contact sparring with protective equipment to his students at this time. He investigated grappling and ground fighting and trained with noted wrestlers, judoka and jiujitsu practitioners.
Bruce also taught privately and trained famous World Champion tournament fighters such as Joe Lewis,Chuck Norris and Mike Stone.
Ted Wong was a private student. This training method was regarded as "Original JKD" and is now called "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" by the Bruce Lee Foundation.
Also, Bruce made Dan Inosanto his Assistant Instructor at the Chinatown school.

Jeet Kune Do Concepts
When Bruce Lee passed away in 1973, JKD concepts was born, it did not exist during his lifetime. Many JKD Concepts Instructors appear to view JKD not as a training and fighting method but as a philosophy to help students to maximise their potiential. Many different martial arts such as Kali, Silat, BJJ, Savate, Thai Boxing,Bando,Shoot Wrestling are taught to students to help them to develop their own "personal JKD".

The term "Jeet Kune Do Concepts" arose when Dan Inosanto, who promised Bruce he would not teach JKD commercially, decided to teach some of the principles and concepts of JKD using the art of kali at public seminars. Promoters started advertising that Dan would be teaching Jeet Kune Do "Concepts." Eventually, this became an umbrella term that encompassed the numerous arts.Dan continues to teach JKD to a select group at his school.

Functional Jeet Kune Do
Some have brought yet a different interpretation to JKD by dropping all or most of what they call Bruce Lee's "outdated dead pattern " training method in favour of what they name "aliveness" . "Aliveness" dictates that every thing is practiced against a "fully resisting"partner/opponent. This incorporates; BJJ,Thai Boxing, Greco Roman Wrestling,Sub wrestling,catch as catch can and other arts. This method appears to have much in common with traditional submission wrestling and MMA. Functional JKD does not appear to teach any "Original" JKD techniques at all.

There is a view that the Functional JKD people regard Bruce's art itself as having "outdated dead patterns". They criticize modern JKD teachers for the way they use "dead patterns" in their training as opposed to "alive" training.

Proponents of all the above methods are sincere in their belief that they are seeking "the truth" and are trying to improve themselves physically and mentally.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: juszczec on January 26, 2009, 08:44:34 AM
Hi folks

FWIW - I don't care what its called.  The concept of putting together your arsenal based on YOUR INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS is valuable.

I don't call what I do JKD because I'm cheap and I don't want to send anyone my money  ;D

Mark
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Martin25 on January 29, 2009, 02:39:14 AM
Hey Mark
I'm cheap too as I don't charge for lessons.
all the best
Martin
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: shastana on February 04, 2009, 11:22:44 AM
And if you zoom back to 1964, fight between Jack Man Wong and Bruce Lee, you can see what Lee was trying to correct.  JMW at that time was a Northern Shaolin expert from China, he has interesting thoughts on Lee's training and abilities (look him up).

Lee challenged anyone to fight him, and JMW stood up to challenge him, but not because Lee was teaching non-chinese, JMW stated this very clearly.  JMW was just "off the boat" and was taking up a challenge from what he saw as a "cocky Wing Chun guy".  At that time, Lee had no Jun Fan, no JKD, only Wing Chun.   

Basically "the fight took too long" was Lees excuse for why he couldn't beat JMW's Northern Shaolin with Wing Chun.  The eyewitnesses say the fight stalemated after 25 minutes, both were exhausted.  And...according to Lee, part of the reason he stopped training in Wing Chun partly because "shortly after the fight began, my fists were swollen from hitting my opponent". 

So, he was trying to develop fighting methods to defeat other CMA stylists, expose their weaknesses, and promote himself.  But, he started trying to improve his skills by finding JMW's teacher, who also came to US at that time!  He got turned down and started the task of research, And the rest is history....

What he used was something like the JKD training program that evolved as we know it today.  That training program still exists, but as instructed by Lee, it evolved.  Whatever you call it, Jun Fan, JKD, BLee method, way of no way, it is NOT Thai boxing, judo, karate, kung fu, etc.  It has its own training methods, its own applications, and thus by definition is something in and of itself.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Professor on February 05, 2009, 06:57:25 AM


I can't believe that this particular thread continues to breath.   It's sort of like the Three stooges movie that being talked about. 

It was.  Let it be.   

It's a good basic theoretical system.    Some of it applies to the modern world of defense.

Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Kaliman33 on February 05, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Jun Fan as we teach it is Bruces methods basiclly from 64-72, we do all the bridging, trapping, chi sao etc. But he would not have stopped thier, it is already known he was experimenting with thai, silat, kali. Inosanto was teaching him, where do you think the sticks in enter the dragon came from, inosanto was also teaching him nunchucks,

JKD Concepts as guro inosanto coined is the progression, we still do all the original stuff but move on and progress, as bruce said if you see somthing that works use it.

As far as the fight taking 25 min?? that is the first i heard of that, he was a pioneer and at the forefront of the mma movement way back then, he was the first to use protective gear and focus mitts and such.


Just some more thought

Marc
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: shastana on February 05, 2009, 08:17:36 PM
I know this is going on and on, sorry Prof!  But, yeah that is basically the story.  WJM printed his story in the Chinese paper, stated his view and a second public challenge to Lee if Lee didn't agree with his story.  Even Jimmy Lee doesn't give much detail about the fight and he was there, just keeps to a short 3 min fight.  Look of Wong Jack Man on wickipedia for details. 

Anyway, who knows what happened, the fact is that the fight was the beginning of MMA.  Its almost like the most important event in MMA history!  It was cool from my view that it was a northern vs southern shaolin style that started MMA, supposedly shaolin is mother of asian MA and was mother of MMA, very Zen!
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Martin25 on February 24, 2009, 04:27:47 AM
Hi and apologies to Prof.
I don't want to get too far into something that has been argued to death, however;
Jeet Kune Do is really simple and has elements of Wing Chun,boxing and fencing.
Bruce looked into other systems and did a SWOT analysis on them.
He did not incorporate the arts Kali or Silat in JKD ,this was done after his death by a few people.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: SileyEric on October 07, 2010, 10:03:34 AM
This whole thing with naming styles or systems, and then saying you teach "no system," but concepts, is a great conversation to have among peers; however, the general public wants some kind of frame of reference for what you are offering.

I know the frame of reference when I call a JKD or Tae Kwon Do school.  There are differences among them, and people inside the organizations will argue over all the small points of what is or isn't included in the term, but people want a frame of reference.

On the TV show "Top Chef Masters" this season, it was a very close competition between 3 chefs who were renowned for French, Italian, and Southwest/Mexican cuisine.  These guys could cook just about anything and make it unbelievable, but they are still identified by what they know best, and both the general public and "foodies" want to have some frame of reference when visiting their restaurants, or even watching the show.  Rick Bayless, the chef doing Mexican, won the competition.  Most people don't know about gourmet Mexican, but watching him, everyone came to understand it was equivalent.

I think this is the hard part of describing what you do without using a term that the general public can identify with.  It takes a significant effort in terms of marketing campaigns or media coverage to change public perceptions.  Bruce Lee did it with his celebrity and sheer ability.  More recently, it's happened with BJJ due to the UFC/MMA and Krav Maga through marketing and growth of interest in reality-based self defense.

The name has to mean something, and it has to stick.  People really aren't interested in a dissertation.  It needs a name, a bunch of people saying "it's good," and a 30 second pitch.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Kaliman33 on October 08, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
I was just with Guro dan, ironiclly he said his intest in silat came form bruce lee, his interets in thai boxing came from bruce lee, his interest in savate came from bruce lee.
Bruce was doing a lot of things he did'nt show because he was still in the research phase.
This is straight from the source.

Marc
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Tansau on October 08, 2010, 10:26:53 AM
I was just with Guro dan, ironiclly he said his intest in silat came form bruce lee, his interets in thai boxing came from bruce lee, his interest in savate came from bruce lee.
Bruce was doing a lot of things he did'nt show because he was still in the research phase.
This is straight from the source.

I recently trained at a seminar with Guro Inosanto at Francis Fong's academy in Atlanta where he said this exact thing. Marc, were you there? I also ran into another guy from Tallahassee, FL who had also trained with Hock. Great seminar. Wing Chun + JKD/FMA + BJJ + Muay Thai all in one weekend.

Another take-away is how much Inosanto stressed conditioning. He said that Bruce Lee told him that conditioning is 60% of winning the fight. He went on to say that one of the Muchado brothers upped that to say conditioning was 80%. One of his Filipino masters said 90%. If you're tired or out of breath you can't think, reaction time slows and you lack both speed and power. Whatever number value you assign, the lesson is clear: staying in good physical condition is vital.

Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on October 08, 2010, 04:19:11 PM
Tansau-great that you had that fantastic weekend-lucky.......
As for conditioning-i am sort of a "expert in that area as I am probably the oldest guy on the forum. (72)- it amazes me to see the younger gerneration who are taking martial arts  that the instructor does not push the physical (and mental ) training-without both
one is in big trouble-i work out 2 times day-except sundays-sometime not hard but i do work out-sometimes hit bag-sometimes run around the mat-sometimes strech-
 i recently started the stretch exersises shown to me by a yoga instructor-really good
ones-
anyhow stay  safe- WW
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: sarguy on July 01, 2011, 02:04:55 AM
mmm, thread necromancy...

I had an interesting talk today about what Bruce Lee's JKD might resemble today if Bruce was still around. How different would it be? How much Muay Thai or BJJ might have rubbed off? Or vice versa?
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on July 01, 2011, 08:14:54 AM
I am not a expert in JKD but i would imagine that if he was still around he would have experimented with what is going on these days   in various arts and he would have  started blending in aspects from them into JKD-as most all arts these days are changing with the times. He might even gotten into close quarter combat movements.
We will never know will we..........WW
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Kentbob on July 01, 2011, 09:01:13 AM
I think when thinking about what JKD would be like today if Bruce were still around, it's important to remember that Bruce Lee could make darn near any technique successful.  Not that I think he would have added a lot of outlandish and esoteric techniques, but things would still be different.  For example, while he was around he made the straight lead one of the basic elements of hand techniques in JKD, and as Keith has pointed out, the straight lead is probably one of the harder punches to do correctly.  After reading Tim Tackett's two Chinatown JKD books, I believe that JKD has been distilled into a series of drills for effectively teaching the techniques that are most prevalent in JKD, which I see as the straight lead, the shuffle kick, and the eye gouge or eye attack.  Modern practitioners have already added knees and elbows, and headbutts (vunak) to this basic mix, as well as a few kicks. 

The more interesting question is what would Bruce's personal style look like today?

What I really want to know is if he would have competed in UFC 1.


Kent
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on July 01, 2011, 01:47:13 PM
Kent - that is a great question-i am not critizing Bruce at all but did he ever do full contact during his time? He has millions follow his style now-would they have followed
if he got in the ring and his techniques did not work?  Again we will never know....its like asking who would win if Alli and Lewis could fight??? My bet it would be the better trained and conditioned fighter when they steped in the ring. Same for Bruce if he was alive.    WW
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Hock on July 01, 2011, 05:15:43 PM
For the record, Bruce lee sparred his whole life. He constructed a lot of things out of sparring.

What would be do today?
Good question.

Hock
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JimH on July 01, 2011, 06:22:05 PM
Wasn't Bruce Lee upset with what had become of his art ?
Wasn't he closing his studio's when he died ?
I would imagine he would have worked on keeping up his individual form of JKD and moved with his age to keep what would have been useful for him,disgarding the rest.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: noload on July 01, 2011, 07:21:40 PM
Then again, maybe he'd have cashed in on his fame and art, and would have opened a string of BL JKD franchises. Would he have kept things moving or standardized his art and missed the entire MMA thing? So many possibilities...
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: wisdom on July 01, 2011, 09:37:50 PM
And I always say maybe Bruce would've got sick and tired if all of it and decided to open a dance studio....we just won't know...maybe he would've went off his nut and began to go the supernatural metaphysical  part of martial arts....stuffs fun to think about....
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 04, 2011, 04:37:23 AM
I own a copy of Bruce Lees yellow jumpsuit.I yell just like him when I hit the bag.I wear those big ass Kenpo gloves with the fat fingers.I wear my electric muscle contracting thing when I am not training.I have all esoteric sayings:Be like a board and water doesnt hit back and empty your cup of cheese.I only practice the moves demonstrated in Bruces films and The Green Hornet.This is Real JKD
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 04, 2011, 06:23:18 AM
BRUCE LEE/1981:I am returning to my dance roots,specifically the cha cha and rhumba.I will only teach cha cha and rhumba.Daniel Inosanto and Taky Kimura will take over the day to day operations of the Bruce Lee Superkids Martial Art Schools.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on July 04, 2011, 03:31:39 PM
JohnS-it appears we are going from a serious thread to sillyness-lets get nack on track
JMHO- ww ;D
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: noload on July 04, 2011, 06:08:15 PM
In a way it could happen.
Bruce gets to be the "old guy" on Dancing With the Stars, after selling gym memberships or BL branded exercise equipment on HSN, after starring in the show Martial Law, after the Kung Fu movie craze died down.
Given time, injuries and where ever his ego took him (I mean that in a good way) there's no telling what he'd end up doing. Some good guesses yes, but certainty?
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 05, 2011, 02:06:21 PM
BRUCE LEE sparred his whole life...Leo Giron and other escrima masters fought against the Japanese...Why does he get cred as the end all know it all of fighting.Movie star.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Kentbob on July 05, 2011, 05:49:56 PM
I think certain individuals on this forum need to review their posts before they hit the "post" button.  I can't quite figure out what exactly you were trying to say, JohnS.  This isn't Twitter, you have more than 140 characters at your disposal.


Kent
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Canuk on July 06, 2011, 09:06:11 AM
I think what he is saying is that others, who actually fought in a War and life and death situations have not recieved any credit for thier actions, while Bruce who ( as far as I know) was never in a life and death situation and has recieved endless credit for his way of doing business.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JimH on July 06, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
According to the Tracy Kenpo Blog week 3 of 4:
Bruce and Tracy were Friendly.
Bruce told the following things to Tracy.
Bruce had many street fights starting at around 14
Bruce DID NOT win all his fights.
Bruce NEVER Knocked anyone out.

The Monday following the Bruce / Wong Man Jack fight,Tracy was told the following about the fight,BY BRUCE:
No One Won the fight.
Wong Man Jack Made Bruce Look Bad.WMJ had No Class.
The  fight lasted about 25 Minutes.
Many times both men were on the ground and neither knew how to take advantage of the situation.
This is what prompted Bruce to study some Grappling  from Bill Paul,a friend of Tracy's.
...
Bruce Lee was a self made Instructor  of Wing Chun,that led to his meeting others and seeing what they had to offer and adopting that which worked for him,from that developing an encompassing base art and then telling others to create their own art of JKD,as he,Bruce,did.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 07, 2011, 11:21:17 AM
Bruce Lee was was a legit Cha cha champ.Thats it.People want to believe that the man in the films was capable of doing the stuff he did in the films for real such as fighting more than one person...People believe in him so much they study Jun Fan gung fu so that they can fight just like him.Bruce was never a competitive martial artist...why does he have this bad ass rep.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Dawg on July 07, 2011, 12:53:39 PM
I own a copy of Bruce Lees yellow jumpsuit.I yell just like him when I hit the bag.I wear those big ass Kenpo gloves with the fat fingers.I wear my electric muscle contracting thing when I am not training.I have all esoteric sayings:Be like a board and water doesnt hit back and empty your cup of cheese.I only practice the moves demonstrated in Bruces films and The Green Hornet.This is Real JKD

Bruce Lee was was a legit Cha cha champ.Thats it.People want to believe that the man in the films was capable of doing the stuff he did in the films for real such as fighting more than one person...People believe in him so much they study Jun Fan gung fu so that they can fight just like him.Bruce was never a competitive martial artist...why does he have this bad ass rep.

The answer to the question in your last post is in the body of your previous one; he has a "bad ass rep" because some people want to be like him so bad they have a copy of his yellow jumpsuit and try to emulate his movements, mannerisms and even try to sound like him.

So which is it? Do you really have a beef with a martial arts icon who has been dead over twenty years or are you secretly taking Cha Cha lessons (in your yellow jumpsuit, of course!) so you can be more like him?

For the record, one of my favorite martial arts books was "Tao of JKD". I treated that book like it was a Bible or something back in the 80's. Good stuff.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 07, 2011, 01:14:30 PM
Kent is right.I do need to write more clearerer...In the first one I was being sarcastic.Discussion about Bruce Lee belongs in Unsecret Lives of Walter Mitty...why isnt Cha cha part of JKD?Bruce Lee~the 13 Questions.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Dawg on July 07, 2011, 02:27:52 PM
Kent is right.I do need to write more clearerer...In the first one I was being sarcastic.Discussion about Bruce Lee belongs in Unsecret Lives of Walter Mitty...why isnt Cha cha part of JKD?Bruce Lee~the 13 Questions.

Of course, Kent is right; he's a genuine superhero! ;D I appreciate you taking his advice and taking the time to make yourself "more clearerer" in your post.

Hopefully, you have something besides the fact that Bruce was fond of some particular dance steps before you label him as a "Walter Mitty".

I have a terminal case of "Whiteboyitis" myself, and I'm often a little jealous of those who aren't afflicted with my illness and are capable of smooth moves on the dance floor. Just not so much that I question their legitimacy as being capable martial artists because they like to dance.

BTW, I'm not a JKD guy, or affiliated with any such organization, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I am curious as to why you would bash on a dead guy, who by most accounts was a highly skilled, innovative and non-traditionalist martial artist back when that was NOT the cool or popular thing to be?

Got a problem with JKD? Practice something else. Got a problem with Bruce Lee? Turn the channel when one of his movies come on. The man seems to have left behind a wonderful legacy, according to what I've been able to read, concerning not only his art, but also his students, family and friends.

What exactly is your beef with the man?

Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: whitewolf on July 07, 2011, 03:36:49 PM
Beef might be in actuality- Jealously-? One never knows what lurks in the minds of men- The shadow knows- ;D-WW
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 07, 2011, 06:05:47 PM
Bruce Lee:ranked in Wing Chun,never worked as a bouncer,cop or security guard.The one fight we CAN prove he was in ended in a stalemate...Then he re evaluated is fighting style,incorporating a lot of Western boxing which stresses being fit.The man who sparred a lot has the legend of being a real fire eater and he was in the films...and on the dance floor. cha cha cha!This is the ways I sees it.If you disagree go study OJKD and Jun Fan Gung fu,be like water.If you feel I am wrong I am then...I am an amazing square dancer.Amazing.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Kentbob on July 07, 2011, 07:04:11 PM
In my opinion, Bruce Lee was not just a talented martial artist and reasonable actor.  From reading articles by people who knew him and trained with him, and from reading "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" I feel that he was also someone who was trying to make the world a better place.  I feel that JKD and kung fu are just as much about lifestyle choices as they are about fighting.

He was in fact a dynamic martial artist, and intense competitor, an innovator, and a decent movie start.  I don't believe he ever intended to become the legend he is today, nor do I think it would have happened if he had lived or if his death hadn't been quite so mysterious. 

Some people claim that JKD is the be-all, end-all of martial arts, and that's fine.  JKD, Bruce Lee, and Dan Inosanto did revolutionize the way a lot fo people train, by helping them to see the advantages of broadening their focus and thus broadening their abilities.  There are plenty of other systems out there that are more appropriate for different people, such as myself who is more concerned about the battlefield.  That does not lessen the significance of JKD and the multi-style approach.

Your nearly incoherent posts about Bruce Lee and what he did or didn't do come off as somewhat childish and immature.  I know there are a lot of people in the martial who take issue with the way Bruce Lee is idolized, and that's fine too.  However, he was a genuine martial artist, even if he did or did not attain official rank in any system.  And from all accounts, he was also a decent guy.  Not anything like the lying scumbags that end up in the Walter Mitty thread.

Kent
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JohnS on July 08, 2011, 08:24:34 AM
Kent.It wasnt me trying to be childish.I was trying to be sarcastic...I will admit though that you are right when you say that BL does not belong in the Walter Mitty thread.That is a special place for special scumbags.I was wrong to group BL in with Wagner and company...You did a Bruce Lee on me.You were like water and look I emptied my cup!
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Canuk on July 08, 2011, 09:33:23 AM
I attened a training seminar run by James DeMile (who referred to himself as Bruce's Number 1 student"

Of course Bruce's name came up and people wanted to hear about the "real" Bruce Lee. James didnt actually paint a great picture of him as a person. He said that Bruce was a short skinny guy that had one leg significantly shorter than the other leg and was blind as a bat. James also stated that Bruce was arrogant and aggressive always had something to prove.

James even stated that at one point Bruce had a problem with him on a personal level and that he (James) had a nine millimeter on him in case things went bad.

Also said that Bruce was the fastest thing he had ever seen.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JimH on July 09, 2011, 08:31:13 AM
For those interested in Bruce Lee,the Good and the BAD.
A book about Bruce Lee by mr Bleeker:
http://www.4shared.com/get/xrBW6PqA/Tom_Bleecker_-_Unsettled_Matte.html

It will be an eye opener for those who believe Bruce to be a nice friendly,clean living,happily married guy,lol.
It is closer to what I have heard from people who knew Bruce have said,than the BS sold to the public to make money.

For those who hold the ultimate work of Bruce Lee,"The Tao of JKD" to be the be all and end all read chapter 15.
(the book is almost all lifted from others books and were Bruce Lee's notes of referance,with no credit by the writers,(not Bruce),to any of the original writers  or their books)
The chapter also asks how Bruce became the be all and end all of martial arts.
Recreated History,but not the level to be in the Walter Mitty section.

Hey I am not a Bruce Hater.
I was well into the Martial arts by the time his ideas were in the mags and his movies came out.
I was into Bruce Lee and bought all his  posters,books and still buy materials about him and JKD.
But if we look at him in total and absorb what is useful and discard the rest,as he told us,then we must know the whole story,not just the publc consumption,for profit only,life story.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Cyphre on July 13, 2011, 12:55:19 PM
I'm kinda with JimH on this one. I don't actually have anything against Bruce Lee. However, I don't have anything for him either. What I do have though is a hardon for the truth! (oohh yeahhh!)

Even with my passing knowledge of the martial arts I know for  a gold-plated fact that Lee was about 60-70 years behind the trend for mixing martial arts. DDLR and Bartitsu had already done that in the late Victorian/Edwardian period in Paris and London. Most of what is effective about JKD is actually DDLR anyway. And with even my knowledge of pugilism/boxing manuals you can see how ripped off the Tao of JKD is. Christ, lots of what's in oriential martial arts is in medieval European fechtbuch actually written by people who used to kill each other with swords and by hand for real.

How many actual verifiable fights did Lee have? (win or lose)
Did he actually have any TMA qualifications?
Did he have a TMA contest record?
Was he basically just an actor with great physical performance skills?
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Mesmeriser on August 09, 2011, 03:30:32 PM
isnt tom bleecker who wrote that kind of negative book about bruce  linda lee's(bruce's wife/widows) ex?

just saying...  probably not very objective.  though im sure theres some truth to what he has to say.
i dont really care either way, i think bruce is kickass  but hes not the end all

later
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: JimH on August 10, 2011, 07:46:42 AM
Yes Bleeker did marry Linda Lee .
He wrote his book based on information he was given access to in Linda Lee's home and in Bruce Lee's office.
He had access to Linda's memories,Lee's notes,books,medical records,every thing as Bruce and Linda supposedly kept EVERYTHING.
This is where the info for his book comes from.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: EricBentzenDGC on August 10, 2011, 01:31:02 PM
 :( it wasn't just about taking the best technique and using it.. without getting into a bit thing.. Intercepting, destructions, was big here to... We all have 2 legs and arms.. I think you are missing the point and need to do some more research or train with someone qualified to teach you the right answers u seek.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Joe Hubbard on August 12, 2011, 01:32:52 AM
Good post Eric!

I bought and read Thomas Bleeker's book back in the 90s.  An important thing to point out about Bleeker is that he did marry Linda and very quickly Linda divorced him.  Bleeker was very disgruntled about the divorce and then he cashed in on the Bruce Lee brand name and wrote that book.

His book is based mostly on speculation, but the basic theme is to point out that Bruce wasn't a monk who sat under a waterfall- who is?  He was a normal guy.  Many who read that book were shocked that Bruce experimented with anabolic steroids.  These are the same people that still insist their favorite athlete hasn't done the same thing.  These people are ignorant.  I have even had arguments with people who insist that bodybuilders like Ronnie Colemen are natural athletes, LOL!

Bruce was consumed by his training and research.  His whole ethos was being the best he could be and always maintaining the highest standards.  People who are driven by the highest standards and who end up as the leaders in their field often have personal problems- why should he be any different.

My take on that book is Bleeker was a punk who was dumped by Bruce Lee's wife.  That was his meal ticket and it was taken away.  I wonder if Tacket knows anything about this guy?

Joe
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Hock on August 12, 2011, 10:53:23 AM
Tackett knows the whole scoop.
But he won't gossip about it publically.
If you are close to him, in a quiet place, he might get around to the details.

Hock
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: Keith Miller on August 12, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
Many who read that book were shocked that Bruce experimented with anabolic steroids.  These are the same people that still insist their favorite athlete hasn't done the same thing. 

Steriods were not illegal in the late 60s/early 70s either.
Title: Re: JKD?.... Discuss
Post by: EricBentzenDGC on August 12, 2011, 02:36:13 PM
Thank you Joe.
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