Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: EpicThought on January 21, 2009, 12:25:28 AM

Title: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: EpicThought on January 21, 2009, 12:25:28 AM
Last week I was in a class where we were taught to do a "straight arm bar takedown" that would put a standing opponent on his stomach and then put him in a "post." The "post" from what I saw was part arm bar and part wrist lock. Your opponent is on his stomach and you are squatting down with his arm coming up straight towards the ceiling and between your knees while applying a wrist lock with pressure towards the ground.

I'm sure that a lot of you are familiar with this technique. I have two questions about it. First what is the art this technique is based on and then what  reverses or defenses are there for this technique?
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: Joe Hubbard on January 21, 2009, 02:34:19 AM
It's generic- every art in the world has this technique.  Counters are like everything else: early, mid and late phase; if it is sunk in by a trained guy who knows what he is doing and you leave it too long, then often there are no counters.

Best

Joe
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: EpicThought on January 21, 2009, 11:33:35 AM
I was looking at it late phase and thinking "man there isn't a way out of that." But it seems that there is always something even if it only works on when you hold your tongue just right. The problem is I seem to find out these things out at inopportune times. What are some of the things you would try if you were already on your stomach with arm up?
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: hessian1 on January 21, 2009, 12:24:08 PM

  Epicthought,

       Two basic thoughts.

     1. If he has your arm locked out straight vertical and is pressing that shoulder into the floor then your in a bad place with little chance of escape.

     2.  If they are not driving the shoulder into the floor then you may be able to bring the opposit arm/shouler across underneath you and roll through.

   So basically if someone is attempting this move on you, you should try to go down onto the floor with the free arm attempting a shoulder roll in the early stage, and kind of a "shrimping" shoulder roll in the late phase or at least get the free arm all the way across your body under you when you make contact with the floor. You might even be able to use the hand underneath to hook one of the heels and unbalance them if they have their feet in close.

    Hope this makes sense.

Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: jmech on January 21, 2009, 01:27:48 PM
If this restraint hold is being done properly, there are three points that make it effective: 1) a shoulder lock, pinning the shoulder to the floor, preventing the person being restrained from getting off the floor or rolling out of the hold; 2) a wrist lock utilizing downward pressure which keeps the bad guy down, and can be utilized to give pain compliance whenever the person attempts to escape; and 3) a straight elbow, this allows the shoulder lock and the wrist lock to work-you have a straight arm "hammer lock" on the shoulder and the straight arm gives you the ability to use the floor as the base for the wrist lock, and all with the same application of pressure.

For me, I have had the best success in getting out of this hold by going after #3.  by rotating your arm on its central axis, you can usually find an angle where you can bend your elbow, therein causing the wrist lock to no longer be effective and taking the pressure off your shoulder enough to move.  If you are wondering "what the hell does he mean by 'central axis'?" then hold your arm straight out in front of you and put it against a wall, with your arm locked straight.  without moving your hand, "cork screw" the length of your arm, so that if your elbow is pointing at 3 o'clock, you point it down to 6 o'clock or up to 12 o'clock.  But use caution with this, I once rotated like this from a nothing hold (not the one we are discussing in this thread...) and turned right into an arm bar that hyperextended my elbow.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

Joe
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: JimH on January 21, 2009, 03:38:30 PM
I agree with Mark in that if you are aware of the arm bar being put on then you must go to the ground faster than the lock is being applied and you must roll up on the inside ending on your back. and fighting from your back.

If the hold is on then try to catch the leg or foot of the opponent push with the pinned arm and pull with the free hand using an attempt to body roll inside,into the trapped arm.

I also would try Joe's number 3.
It is dependent upon how the opponent is applying the lock and if it is done right then there maybe little you can do at the final point,but as Joe said there is always a chance of having wiggle room and this maybe enough to attempt an escape by finding an angle to bend to elbow and negate the pain compliance.
Also as Joe said,if you are dealing with someone who will take the bent elbow and work it into another lock you maybe in worse trouble.
You could also attempt a sacrifice forward rollout.

I wonder though under what conditions one might be being put into a lock only ,where an escape would be attempted ?

Perhaps a competition of sorts .

If I were in a street fight I may get to a point in which the lock would be gained but I would immediately go for a break not a hold.
Trying to hold a pain compliance on the street while waiting for police is a risky move.(my opinion)

If the person applying the technique is a Police Officer then fighting for an escape is not ideal.

My opinion
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: noload on January 21, 2009, 09:10:31 PM
That's what I was thinking too Jim. I learned and teach that a lock is for practice or against someone who isn't really much of a threat or if you have numbers in your favor, otherwise it's a break, dislocation or some kind of damaging move.
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: harvey on March 13, 2009, 12:55:30 AM
Early early phase explosively retract.
Early phase grab your own wrist or fist and pull down.
kick in nuts always good counter.
Japanese jujitsu

thanks
harvey
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: arnold on March 13, 2009, 06:24:47 AM
There is also the famous "spiff" release. Covering oneself in bacon grease and WD40 renders all arm bar, grappling techniques useless. :P
Title: Re: "straight arm bar takedown" to "post"
Post by: EpicThought on March 13, 2009, 09:03:23 AM
Arnold, I will try the spiff release first thing next week. Thanks for the tip. I'm a little worried about hurting my training partner with this technique. But worst case scenario I guess we will just BBQ anything that we break ;)
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