Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unsecret Lives of Walter Mitty => Topic started by: scarletkali on March 01, 2009, 08:03:38 PM

Title: SCARS training
Post by: scarletkali on March 01, 2009, 08:03:38 PM

Hi All,

A friend asked me if I knew anything about SCARS training?  I didn't so I told him I'd ask y'all and find out.  Does anyone know anything about who teaches this system or anything about it.  I'd appreciate any info as to the effectiveness of it.  The guy wants realisty-based training. 
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: gematriot on March 01, 2009, 08:33:28 PM
I'd appreciate any info as to the effectiveness of it.

In a nut shell: STAY AWAY !!!

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/scars.htm - ( Phil Elmore review)
http://scars.com/   (Peterson says look here for answers)
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JKDish on March 02, 2009, 12:55:47 AM
I guess that's better than Fairy Tale Sea Crap.

Jerry Peterson's teacher is Master Jerry Halsey. He was a student of Jimmy Woo's I believe.  I have a pal who when he was in the Marines still, had someone actually check out Peterson's war record. Nothing Jerry claims to have done checks out. TOO classified I suppose.

Funny thing is, I remember back in the day, Tim Larkin was Jerry's assistant. Back then he was parading himself as an ex-SEAL. Then, he started saying he was honorably discharged from the SEALs due to a UDT accident. Then when he left SCARS and started TFT he said on the DVDs that he had the accident before he even completed BUDs and was put in charge of the Naval Special Warfare department that searches out CQC material and that's how he met Peterson.

Now I have heard that even THAT's a lie. He never even entered BUDs. Basically he tried to and did'nt cut the mustard. Like, at all. The fabrication of Larkin's military record was Jerry's idea to market SCARS. All for Jerry's personal gain. TFT is'nt doing good either from what I understand.

And, not selling you guy's a tough-guy story or nothin but..I have BEEN hit and kicked in all those "targets" myself and have not even reacted anything like they say EVERYONE will.

I know this...Hock's counter-knife stuff'll work. That SCARS stuff will NOT.
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JimH on March 02, 2009, 12:55:40 PM

Tim Larken  had ear problems way before he joined the Navy.
He had SEVERAL corrective surgeries for his ears prior to joining the Navy.
He applied and was accepted to BUDS as he had friends in high places.
He lied on his application saying he had NEVER had surgeries nor ear problems.
(his lying on his application,knowing he would not make it through BUDS,denied another potential candidate of a spot)
He DID NOT go very far in BUDS as his ear problems flaired up once he encountered water and he was outted as having had surgeries,lying and was out of BUDS.
Medical disqualifications are allowed to return, he was not.
He had friends in High places and was given a job near the Teams.
He Never passed BUDS,Never was a SEAL,Never worked on the TEAMS,he did bring his then Pal in as Peterson got to demo his system for the TEAMS.
Through Larkin's high up friend,SCARS was taught to one maybe two BUDS classes,then SCARS was No more as far as the navy was concerned.
Larkin, his high up friend and several SEAL Instructors were made Instructors of SCARS.
Lew Hicks a SEAL instructor was given instructorship in SCARS and San Soo and he changed his SCARS teaching name to SAFTA.

Tim Larkin's TFT is not his brain child,he is just the front man for TFT.
Chris Buhr is the person behind TFT.
Having seen the TFT DVDs Tim Larkin appears to Not have a clue ,maybe a basic idea, as he rarely is seen doing anything,it is Chris Buhr who knows and teaches this material with Chris' instructors.
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: scarletkali on March 02, 2009, 05:18:15 PM
First, since I am an instructior under Hock yup...sure did tell the guy about Hock and the incredible instructors under him...but my friend is very unversed in the area of martial arts and defensive tactics and such.  He is in the National Guard and is in his 30's.  He lives pretty far from Steve (my instructor and I) but I did offer to try to figure out a time we could train at least a couple times a month.  And I did invite him to one of Hock's seminars in May and to a camp that Kevin Engstrom, one of Hocks instructors did here in KY last weekend.  He enjoyed that and is coming back for the next one I think.  Anyway, my friend went to a SCARS camp a couple years ago and felt he was taught "good stuff" but the stuff he showed me was really only good stuff if you didn't know any better...or if the other guy was completely compliant. 

Now, Thanks to all who replied about Scars training.  I knew Iheard something about it and that the head instructor was a liar but didn't have my facts straight so I didn't want to say anything until I did.  I knew someone would come through and I appreciate all you help.  Now I can tell me friend to look on the forum and find out for himself what people who really know their stuff have to say...I really appreciate your help. ;D
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: noload on March 02, 2009, 10:02:11 PM
Who is Chris Ranck-Buhr, what's his background?
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: noload on March 03, 2009, 06:12:50 PM
Does all of the TNT stuff look like this? What do you do if technique one fails?

Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JimH on March 03, 2009, 07:01:30 PM
Chris Ranck-Buhr was studying Martial arts (1985-1990)while attending College.
chris opened a school and began teaching in 1990.
I believe Chris then maet Torin Hill who was interested in sport and injuries.

Tim Larkin has written that he had heard of this school that was doing amazing training in regard to combat/Violence and anatomy/injury.
Tim went to the school and was amazed at what these men were doing and wanted to learn and be a part.
The group then formed under Larkin as TFT

So Chris Ranck-Buhr is the start of what became TFT.
Torin Hill became the Brain Child and is the creative force behind TFT.

Here is Torin's Bio:

condensed BIO follows:

Torin Hill

My professional illustration experience began fresh out of High School, working for commercial clients producing digital for-print media, comic book covers, and classical painting.
Upon my return to San Diego, I began interdisciplinary research on anatomy, injury biomechanics, and pedagogy. While developing that program, I also got involved in Video Game graphics, and ultimately into Flash and the Internet. All while under the spell of Leyendecker, Tufte, Koolhaas, Struzan, Meier, Eames and Tadema.

Fast-forward 10 years....
I've been a Creative Director (albeit years ago now), and traveled around the world teaching seminars to civilians and tactical personnel. I'm currently directing the product development of a Java/Flash integration software company and creating a training curriculum for the largest Law Enforcement agency in the US.

What a wild ride.

Director of Military and Law Enforcement Training, Master Instructor
The Target-Focus Training Group
(Partnership; Marketing and Advertising industry)

2002 ó 2007 (5 years)

Created the TFT training program for Tim Larkin:
Piloted the physical training and outsourced our Instructors to the TFT program.
Introduced the training focus on Injury and Violence.
Created and introduced the "Assembly" training process.
Created the format, modules, rubrics, etc. for 1st & 2nd phase TFT Mastery Program.
Developed a full product roadmap for the video products.

With Master Instructor Ranck-Buhr:
literally wrote the books on Striking, Joint-Breaking and the course information.
Created the material on "Social Agression vs. Asocial Violence".
Designed the visual graphics for the manuals and target lists.
Instructed/Corrected other Instructors during video shoots.

Created the pilot Mil./L.E. program:
Introduced the concept of training as Applied Sports injury.
Principal Instructor at the FLETC video shoot.
Creator and Principal Instructor of the 2007 TRExpo presentation 'Justified Lethal Force: Injuries, Their Mechanics and Application'.

Additional Information
Torin Hillís Interests:
Sports Injury, Software, Ethics, Dancing

Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: Milldog1776 on March 03, 2009, 08:12:53 PM
Does all of the TNT stuff look like this? What do you do if technique one fails?


A Stone Cold Stunner from the ground. That's why this shit is $1000 a tape?

Dumbest shit I've ever seen ;D
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: noload on March 03, 2009, 08:17:07 PM
So none of these guys has actual experience doing this stuff? No kills, no missions, no arrests, nothing but training or am I missing something? ??? OK, if that's true then I'm in the same boat as far as experience, but I'd feel really silly writing about extreme violence if I've never experienced it.

Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JimH on March 03, 2009, 09:19:42 PM
One does not have to experience something to become an expert on it,just look at all the books out there ,lol,all research and opinion,not many first hand accounts.

If you wanted to gain experience to write about violence then do as these guys have and study and research it.
Take classes on anatomy,physiology,injuries.
And OR
Talk to those who have experienced it like  Police and ER doctors,also talk to orthopedics in bone injuries as well as battlefield medics.

You might also try finding and talking to those who have participated in violent crimes to get the other sides view of violence.

Experiencing violence does not make one an expert on Violence ,(in my opinion) it makes you an expert in the violence of  each of your ,singular,situation/s

Knowing a lot about violence and being a so called expert in the field is based on others opinions of the facts you can lay out,no always based on experience.

Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: Benjamin Liu on March 03, 2009, 09:27:50 PM
Experiencing violence does not make one an expert on Violence ,(in my opinion) it makes you an expert in the violence of  each of your ,singular,situation/s

Yes, the people I know who seem to get into fights all the time are not the people I'd want to take much advice from.  There is a reason they get into these fights, and it has nothing to do with being skilled, rational, mature adults. :D
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: noload on March 03, 2009, 10:53:50 PM
One does not have to experience something to become an expert on it,just look at all the books out there ,lol,all research and opinion,not many first hand accounts.

I agree, I don't have to touch a hot stove to know that it'll hurt. I don't think I was clear in my previous post, too darn tired. What I meant was how they write about it without experience. It's almost like they are selling the experience without ever having the experience. My weekly training partners are a former CHiP, a retired SF guy, a local cop, and a few younger guys who like to train so we have the first hand violence thing down pretty good. In the past I've trained with some other guys who have also BTDT, and in all that time of working out with these guys I haven't heard something like this...
I like to look at it from the other side -- the blood bucket is half full, and I'm going to use him to fill it the rest of the way up.


A lot of the language I see floating around when people talk "reality self-defense" is the language not of killers, but of people trying to justify that role, to feel better about it. Trying on the mantle of the killer, finding it distasteful, and then looking for logical constructs to make it fit better, to give yourself sufficient reason to try it on in the first place.

Maybe the guys I know who have multiple kills turned tree-hugger and stopped talking that way, maybe I'm turning into a hippie, again, and just find it distasteful, but to me it's just odd to see people talking that way.

Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JKDish on March 04, 2009, 03:37:15 AM
Agree with all these points here. How about when TRS et al ads their newest bad-ass in a martial arts magazine who has "been in over 600 street-fights". I can list off many reasons why you would'nt want to train with someone claiming that. But the main one that comes to my mind is ..even if he DID get into that many fights; what you think they ALL just came to him? Are we talkin about a guy who regularly finds 27 ninjas waiting for him when he heads for the bathroom to take a shower? Does'nt that mean since his college days, his summer-job boss would have tried to kill him? Naw, means he would have gone looking for fights, which means he more than likely started most of them which means he can't AVOID them. And he wants to teach others how to keep themselves and family safe? Kind of like a fire-fighter who is an arsonist.

Oh and also it's total BS, even 200. How about a well-trained guy who has been in a mere 20 fights, but paid attention to all of them and learned from many of his mistakes?
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: JimH on March 04, 2009, 02:55:17 PM
Violence does not have to be experienced to be to be a viable option.

Everyone has the ability to be violent,look at the news and see the children able to kill and then admit it without remorse.
The house wife who is attacked in her home and finds a way to get a knife and stabs the attacker to death.

Violence is a mindset that can be acted upon or not.
Too many people do not flip the switch to go to violence in a bad situation and they pay the price,with injury or death.
Then you have those who are easy to flip the switch to Violence and they fly into conflict because someone looked at them,these people end up with a lot of fights and find themselves in trouble down the road,either jail,or retaliation which results in their death.

For TFT,I think this is why Larkin is the Figure Head,his past training experiences and the belief by many that he was a SEAL,even though he has changed that story,lend themselves to the illusion that he has a background in Violence and lend well to his and these guys selling their product.
Title: Re: SCARS training
Post by: Hock on January 07, 2011, 12:37:04 PM
6 Years later and Jerry has contacted me.
He is pretty "laid back," saying calmly that a lot of people are wrong about him and asked that people just read his web page for explanations and answers...