Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Mesmeriser on February 22, 2010, 09:02:21 PM

Title: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Mesmeriser on February 22, 2010, 09:02:21 PM
Sup guys,

so many forums, i wasnt quite sure where to put this so if this is in the wrong place i apologise in advance,

I discovered the filipino arts through the bourne movies witch looked incredibly cool.
a fma guy started teaching classes in my town  (doce paris based) so i jumped on it.
errr...... its not really what i expected, dont get me wrong i think its all really cool, but im looking for self defence,  these guys seem to train for what i can only describe as ''duelling'' 2 guys duelling with sticks, alot of it seems to be more about not getting hit and hitting the stick with your stick then actually getting in quick knocking out or controlling the opponent. they circle and dance around eachother trying to make twirly hits at eachother.  I'm also interested in the empty hand pangamut/pantukan but apparently i wont get taught in this untill after im proficient in all the weapons. So this sux. am i being a brat or am i right thinking this doesnt transfer well to self defence, besides that what are the odds of fighting another stick figher on the street, rather learn how to use a stick effectively w/o the flair

I was hoping you guys could help me find  or recommend something that suits me.
Im looking for an art that does stand up empty hand but when close flows over in dumog controlling, locking, holds type techniques
and also an art that does something more with hands then just hitting,i really liked about the fma how they would use a hand to controll an arms and end up on the outside alot of the time.   i  like the idea of  flow drills helpng you with this.although the people in my class seem to believe they can actually stop knives because they practice flow drills :\
And best would be if it's reality based. these might not be martialarts but they do seem to be on point working realistic scenarios and drilling skills hard that are relatively easy to apply.
and doing lots of applications with at least semi lively opponents.
I say that because the biggest joke of my school is how they do applications. A guy doing the biggest swing youve seen in your live, then theyl  ''check'' the hand and then offcource do tons of twirly patterns beating the guy (witch again is very cool) but maybe just for once they should try working this on an actual realistic atack you might come across in the real world.
otherwise call it duelling class or traditional art class instead of  ''brutal harsh realistic self defence''

In the past ive done karate and thai boxing, what i didnt like about thai boxing was how it was just hitting a guy and taking hits, i would never use side or lowkicks in reallife ever but the knee and front kicks were effective.  there arent any real blocks in it and when you get close theres a clinch  but nothing to lock, hold or controll a person im really interested in this part added in.
A friend told me about cqc to bad this place http://www.closecombat.nl/ is a 2 hour drive away. i really liked the demo vid on their front page. i havent checked out the owner of this system though,  i was interested in jim wagner a while back he turned out to be a fraud, they no longer teach his system.
opinions, advice... all is welcome

thanks alot guys
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Hock on February 22, 2010, 10:05:58 PM
In the subject of Filipino, these are the common problems. You must first know what you want at first, and know what they do, otherwise you may be disappointed.

I am stuck in an awkward position because I have been doing "FMA" and things for many, many, many years but, like Karate or Jujitsu too...they do not really interest me. I will admit I know a lot about these things? But they do not satisfy me. I only teach them when asked. Yes, I have a bit fun doing it. My interests lie in different combatives aspects of things.

The people/webpage you selected are essentially "my guys" right by you! I know each of them on that webpage for many years and I know them very well and I really like them, their dedication and hard work. They are also very smart, friendly and good people. They have my 100% endorsement.

Plus I wil be there the last weekend in November for a seminar! But they are more important than me because they will be connected to you in the long term if you stay with them to train and have a relationship.

Good Luck!

Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: whitewolf on February 22, 2010, 10:18:12 PM
Mes-listen to Hock=he will not steer you wrong-if you can take someof his seminars-
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Mesmeriser on February 23, 2010, 12:48:10 PM
hey guys, thanks alot for the fast responces.

I would start training there in a heartbeat, it looks llike practical fma drilled and trained with application and reality in mind. i would go there in a heartbeat it looks kickass
however a 2 hour drive would mean i'l be driving 4 hours total (its probably more like 3 and a half hour) for an hour of training. being a very busy person im just not sure if i can fit that realisticly in my daily life, a visit would be no problem but weekly?
i do see they seem to have monthly ''seminars'' that last a few hours,  those could prove to be very cool to visit. i might be able to figure something out with the owner of the school.

I know you have a commercial product and all and obviously you believe most in your own stuff.
 However my question is more about fma arts in general,you know..  from one fma lover to another, you obviously have alot of experience so i'd appreciate your opinion on the matter.

 without something like your school closeby to train fulltime,  is it worth it to train  fma the way they do over at for example doce paris and most other systems?
Because It is fun, but im having trouble seeing it as self defence, i see it more like i would kendo or fencing.

will it serve as a good base for when i later find your stuff or some other style that has more of an realworld application / reality focus to fma?
or will it mess me up?

Because my fears are that im learning all kinds of bad habits
 duelling has a real diff focus then self defence has. and my other fear is that i might waste years of my life doing this and may have been better off practicing something like krav maga(even though i dont like it that much but at least the school i visited trains the right way, intense,lots of application,right mindset and they sparr))  or even just a mix of thai boxing and bjj(even though i hate mmal it can be usefull im sure)

if i were to fight
 with a stick even though (i have no training in it besides some fma) right now i would use a stick to block better and easier, stab stomach or throat(if really nessisary) and hit the head.   and apply a choke or arm bar to controll(they are alot easier with a stick)
doce paris is teaching me all kinds of weirdness checking hands and doing left to right strikes at stomach, and it gets (seemingly) weirder and moreuseless
 all the time,im having trouble
 all the technique seems to come from a duelling framework where they are representing swords instead of sticks.

Will it be usefull and improve overall skill?   or will it have negative impact?
i will crosstrain in somekind of punching art either way and thinking about also taking on some kind of jujitsu or judo (even though i hate the brazillian kind)
is training fma worth it?

i'd really appreciate your opinion on this having a much more of a overview on the fma not to mention focussing on realworld apllication.

Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Hock on February 23, 2010, 02:10:00 PM
Well, if you want self defense?
I would pass on Filipino martial Arts.
It is...a...martial art with its dogma and abstract ideas.

If you like Filipino martial arts then its worth it because you desire TONS of single stick vs. single and double stick and other aspects unique to FMA.

In the end though, its better to do something than nothing and get off the couch and do something. (And yes - you could get some bad habits too!)

Are you near any good Thai Boxing people? If stuck with only martial arts? I'd take Thai and Jujitsu (and not ground fighting jujitsu like BJJ -  a more diverse kind with stand-up)
For an example...Your aera is famous for very good Thai boxers.

Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Mesmeriser on February 23, 2010, 05:57:05 PM
thanks for your input man i appreciate it.
i just got back from fma class and ive decided its just kickass so il keep it,i enjoy it and to be honest it makes me feel cool as hell being able to do tricks with the stick  im sure i'l learn some usefull  things along the way and  maybe eventually just cross over to the pure knife style frans stroeven also teaches here.

in the mean time i found a (japanese) jiu jitsu school that im gonna try out
and i reckon im just gonna pick up thai boxing again for the workout and practical skills.
yeah we have alot of great thai boxers, i stopped training in it because of a 2 year recovering injury, after that i didnt feel like going back to it because i always hated how it was just mediocre boxing with legs, it didnt do much with real blocking and or holds locks and anything that would come at the clinch range.

Ive been in 2 fights (with strangers) in my adult life.   one of those was a big guy that just started pounding on me with his jackhammer fists and just kept going at me basicly beat me to a pulp and i couldnt do a damn thing,   my thai boxing and all that didnt do anything
i was lucky basicly some bouncer friends i have were walking home via a shortcut and they happened to see me, there werent many people around whjere it happened  it scared the shit out of me and made me feel like a bitch. i tought i was in some tough fights as a kid being in a bad neighbourhood i got at multiple guys more then once but these guys never wanted to kill me , they just wanted tofuck me up.
this fight was like nothing i'd ever experienced
ever since then ive been very high on self defence.
and looking for more jiu jitsu, wrestling close range fighting type skills.

just to let ya know why i have such a hardon for ''self  defence''.
thanks alot for your input,
it helped.

Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Canuk on February 23, 2010, 07:01:41 PM
Size matters, strength matters, speed matters, skill matters, equipment/tools matter, mind set matters CHEATING matters
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: whitewolf on February 23, 2010, 08:36:13 PM
As Canuk says- Cheat- (use a louisville slugger if the going gets tough) WW
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: redfive on February 24, 2010, 02:43:54 PM
Your current FMA class will give you the command and mastery of the stick and knife and should throw you into the empty hand aspects as well. Then you need to get Hocks PAC DVDs and SDMS DVDs. These will show you how to fight with the sticks and develop further skills that you would more likely use on the street. I had a very strong FMA background when I started with Hock in the early 90s and I was a stick swinging fool. I looked really cool and like a real bad ass swinging around doubles.  Some of Hocks students of half the FMA experience were kicking my butt when it came time for the sparring and the combat scenarios. That's when I learned that a lot of the shit I new would not work in full combat or under stress. A lot of the traditional techniques need to be slightly modified to work properly. I still remember Hock smiling at me in those days, because he new where I was coming from. The DVDs can teach in one hour what would take you months to learn otherwise. This is because of the way he simplifies the techniques and explains them.
 Especially the disarms.  Good luck and stick with it.


Just remember, stick fighting should not be hard. You take the stick and you bash the other guy in head with it. Keep it simple
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: whitewolf on February 24, 2010, 06:15:16 PM
ill drink to that-smash till the cows come home-WW
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Ashblaster on February 24, 2010, 11:53:02 PM
Hock's PAC dvd's are excellent- lot's of combative drills in the vein of FMA. If you want some empty hand material to study from check out Marc Halleck's Panantukan Silat series- emphasis on the martial and not the art.
Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Mesmeriser on February 26, 2010, 10:27:20 AM
lots of great info  here

yeah its kind of what i figured to, theres alot of great stuff in fma plus its alot of fun but at some point you have to modify what you know to more realistic circumstances.

I already have the tapes on my wishlist,   im not a big believer in  learning from videos unless its for refinement so im gonna wait untill i have at least a 1 year base before im gonna think about adapting things, right now i know jack about fma im about a month and a half in. but im definatly gonna stick with it.

WW,canuk   definatly feel ya on the do whatever it takes. and size does matter as i found out but knowhow,speed ,agression and commitment do to. im gonna be focussing on these

it wasnt like i was trying to do a round of boxing with that guy though,    i remembered my lessons
as soon as the fight is a fact hit first, hit fast, hit harder , keep hitting untill hes down or you can escape.
But he just hit right through me,  he hit through my attacks, he hit through my defence and he hit through my body.   i came in pretty agressive adrenaline flowing i embraced that it was on and i wasnt gonna die that night.  thats what made it so much worse, if i were intimidated  or froze or something i couldve said damn well it happens learn from it next time go at it with everything you got. well i already did! i felt so weak afterwards i still remember, but hey it happens im glad i came out without anything permanent
 this guy just came in with an agression level and just full on crazy commitment of the likes i had never seen he fully overpowered. and its not like ive had a sheltered life.
but im not very'' big ''im about  1.75m with is perfectly cool height

and i weigh like 80 kilos witch isnt that much     
this guy was also  big i remember his fists just being huge, so those things got me really into the  i need to know more about how to deal with bigger strength then mine holding locking, controling,  wrestling, that kind of thing., so im gonna try out some things  see whats jiu jitsu is about may check out the brazillian kind(hate this with a passion but hey if it can safe my life) may even pickup kravmaga(ikmf) because it does alot of scenario type stuff .  but whatever im gonna do im gonna keep in atleast the fma and one art that kicks in the agression and the killer workout with basic skills (thai boxing or something.

appreciate the tips gonna bookmark Marc Halleck's 

Title: Re: Would like some advice on martialarts
Post by: Mesmeriser on February 26, 2010, 10:50:13 AM
thinking about it for a second.
 in retrospect  right now i can think of alot of things i couldve done that i didnt, i do think agression levels and commitment levels can be alot higher then what i did and  when i think back i came in hard but along the way a switch flipped i got intimidated by the sheer immensity of his force and agression and got intimidated so i think i kinda gave up halfway and switched to a more defensive mental position and thats what hung me. i also know alot more dirrty stuff now then i knew back then.

i think mindset is where it all starts, 
confidence and competence.