Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unsecret Lives of Walter Mitty => Topic started by: Hock on May 05, 2005, 01:41:59 PM

Title: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on May 05, 2005, 01:41:59 PM
It is always difficult to answer a question about an instructor or course in particular. But, in an overall nutshell, and in a general response to all questions about all people with courses on the marketplace?...So, if so many people are all doing the same good things, the next tie-breaker for me is where do they come from. What have they done? Like me, you, the customer then must decide- is it real, Memorex or just tissue paper?

...There are some people on the market place that have built their ad/marketing campaigns on a thin, tissue paper of lies and exaggerations, things we old-timers know the true, background stories about. How and where they got started. How they came up. I guess I am an old-timer and I know these people and stories-chapter and verse. 

General examples?
There is a USA guy claiming to be trained and teaching the secret Viking fighting arts. Yet, when I was in Sweden recently, the common consensus from martial experts was there is no such system in all of the Nordic areas. USA doesn’t know this. This guy has gone through several fad phases in the last 20 years, Indians, Green Berets, now Vikings.

“Prior criminal investigator”…touts one knife expert….Really? When was this? Where? We know him his whole short, life. I know people who attended grammar school with this kid. When did he squeeze that police career in? Hmmmm?

“Post 911 government, counter-terrorism expert." - sounds like Jack on the tv show 24, huh? Not really-simply just a common, sky marshal. And was forced out for a felony after only 6 months of work

"Exclusive hand-to hand combat instructor for the US Navy SEALs" (wow that was a lulu)

“Appalachian Mountains Knife Fighting expert” touts another knife guy, who apologizes for telling lies every few years.  Is this the next one? Trusted historians say there is no such thing.

An ex-con who teaches cops how to shoot…then the police freak out later when they discover this truth…

Coke heads teaching the DEA…(wha? How does this happen?)


I could go on and on and on and on and on... and some of what they teach is...generally good stuff, too!


Questions…
These are the questions customers must ask, that people like me are not always the best to answer, (publicly anyway- we sound like sour grapes, jealousy and gossip when we say it, huh?)

But, to me overall quality is not always based on the observation that some of the material was good. Is the instructor half-full (confabulations and exaggerations) or full (lies) of crappolla, too?

How much does this factor weigh in the overall review of a instructor and a course?

Hock
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: JimH on May 05, 2005, 07:42:28 PM
Hock,
I fully agree.
When you attend seminars by some of these people and you hear their line of part truths and mostly BS ,if you have a clue and question them the stories change and you see them for what they are liars.

They spin  crap into Gold and people buy their stories.

If you can spin a good story you can make a fortune,because people are so Gullible.

3 months riding on a plane makes someone an anti terrorist specialist,lol.
As said,if his is the only training you can get then he maybe the greatest thing out there,till you get out there and see other stuff.

A guy in New York is making a fortune with Samurai training.
He attended a class in acting school on theatrical swordsmanship and now calls himself Master whatever and people line up to train with this joker to learn the way of the Samurai and get into samurai shape,lol.

People,please do the research on the claims these people make before you spend your hard earned money.

Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: kamagong on May 06, 2005, 12:41:38 PM
I saw the ad for the guy claiming the Appalachian Knife fighting.  I found this very interesting since I am appalachian, grew up and live in the mountains, and have never heard of a knife system to come out of here.  Believe me I would have found it.  Maybe I could develop my own and call it "Hick-Kun-Do" or "Whoop-Jitsu".  All of our students would show up to class wearing bibbed overalls, a John Deere cap, and Wolverine work boots.  We would also require them to dip snuff, and provide their own Ale-8 One bottle to spit in (for those of you all who don't know, Ale-8 One is a soda exclusive only to central Kentucky and is also called Kentucky Swamp water.  Every almost every redneck in the area drinks it and uses the bottle to spit in afterwards).  All Instructors in the system would be required to have at least one tooth knocked out.  :D
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Milldog1776 on May 06, 2005, 01:43:38 PM
All of our students would show up to class wearing bibbed overalls, a John Deere cap, and Wolverine work boots.  We would also require them to dip snuff, and provide their own Ale-8 One bottle to spit in:D

You mean they don't already? ....I'm very disappointed in you, kama.  ;D
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on May 06, 2005, 02:35:31 PM
You're speaking of Kevin Martin. His ad is in Tactical Knives magazine so everyone knows it anyway. And I can say that you should not hold the magazine or editors to blame. I think I can and should freely state the following...

For a period of over a year, maybe two... he had completely fabricated an endorsement from me on his webpage. It was a glorious paragraph where I declared him wonderful and he actually claimed I called him "the next Rex Applegate." This quote also indirectly ridiculed Kelly Worden and Keating.

A guy told me at a seminar that he worked out with Kelly Worden and asked me why I didn't think much of kelly. I said, "wha?" He told me of the Martin endorsement. I said, ..."huh?"

The guy proceeded to "remind" me of my Martin endorsement.

"Huh?"

When I got home I looked. Sure enough, there it was on the web. An absolute, thorough lie. I emailed him and told him to remove it. Which he did without a response. What could he say?

I then realized that Kelly and Keating were a bit "cold" toward me (in a very professional way) of late back then and I finally knew why! I contacted them and explained. Kelly had pretty much figured it out already. Kelly told me that Martin has apologized on several knife forums for a variety of fabrications regularly (this part I have no personal evidence of...) 

This is what you are dealing with-with Mr Appalachia, there.

Hock

PS: there is an interesting story on how he got on that "Top Ten Knife-Guy" list of Tact Knives-but without the approval of my insider friends, I will not release it.
 
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: fabbe on May 06, 2005, 04:37:26 PM
There is a USA guy claiming to be trained and teaching the secret Viking fighting arts. Yet, when I was in Sweden recently, the common consensus from martial experts was there is no such system in all of the Nordic areas. USA doesn’t know this. This guy has gone through several fad phases in the last 20 years, Indians, Green Berets, now Vikings.

Regarding the individual who claims to be teaching Viking fighting arts; that guy - and his whole web site - is considered to be a big joke here in Sweden.

On his site you can find some pretty fantastic stuff, for example:

"XXX's search for Warcraft ultimately led him to Scandinavia, where he lived and trained in several remote villages above the Arctic Circle, learning the Old Norse arts of battle. Men such as Sigurd Krystalsson, Thorfinn Sigmundsson, and Kulbay Torsson taught XXX the use of sword, shield, spear, battleaxe, bow, knife, and warhammer.
[...]
Hrafns Vegr - 'The Raven's Way': the fighting methods of the Dark Ages Vikings. Emphasis is on the styles of the Einherjar and the Ulfhednar. The dedication to the old Arts of War is still maintained at a few remote Scandian villages in the barrens and deep forests of the far Northlands.
[...]
The Raven's Way will give you Dark Ages technology for any dark times that may be ahead in your future."



Being a Scandinavian martial artist I don't know if I should laugh or cry when I read this. The stuff on his site sounds more like a screenplay for a "Lord of the Rings" movie than anything connected to martial arts, combat training - or reality!

Someone should tell this confused individual that there are NO authentic Viking combat arts alive today. PERIOD. Sure, there's a kind of "Viking wrestling" (called "Glima"), that is still practiced. But if you're looking for a weapons-based Viking fighting system that teaches warhammer, battle axe, knife etc. - you won't find it! At least not here in Scandinavia...

And no one here has ever heard of his teachers, Mr. Krystalsson, Mr. Sigmundsson, and Mr. Torsson. Maybe that's because they live in a "remote village in the deep forests of the far Northlands above the Arctic Circle"... I don't know. Maybe we'll hear more from them when they decide to update their "Dark Ages technology" and go online some day...  ;)

When I checked out this guy's web site today, I also happened to notice that he's now entered a new phase; he's now teaching a "Roman gladiatorial system of cestus fighting taught at Capua, one of Rome's most famous gladiator schools".

So he seems to be getting off the Viking boat, so to speak. Three guys in a remote village somewhere in the far Northlands above the Arctic Circle will be pissed, for sure...

/Fabian
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: kamagong on May 06, 2005, 07:08:26 PM
 :D You are right Mill, I have been truly remiss in getting in touch with my hillbilly roots.  VES, bring your Wolverines to Sunday's workout, and some snuff ;D .  We will practice spitting in the guys eye, then sucker punching him  ;) . 

Tac Knives is where I saw the guy's article then went to his web site.  I read a few if the things on there, and things pretty much fell into place.
One of my old instructors is getting really cozy with the Bando organization, and I hate this for him.   

Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on May 07, 2005, 07:32:14 AM
When I checked out this guy's web site today, I also happened to notice that he's now entered a new phase; he's now teaching a "Roman gladiatorial system of cestus fighting taught at Capua, one of Rome's most famous gladiator schools".

...and I believe that special-forces-viking-gladiator would be...Balise Loong

http://www.blayshalla.com/Blaise/loong/loong.htm

For some reason, it fails to mention the US indian warrior phase and then when he was teaching all the Green Berets...and, and...

Most folks know for absolute sure he trained in southern CA. with Dan Inosanto for a period of time.(Note the page contains a photo of he and Dan, not he and not Stutgard Von Helsing-Nordic Warrior Lord.)

He also designs knives? Or an I thinking of someone else with a similar sounding name? Fantasy knives?

Anyway, past that Los Angeles sighting....it is all very mysterious.

The further away your source and stories are, like Vikings, Gladiators, or Ghurkas, or mountain peak monks, the harder it is to check on and disprove.

As Dennis Miller would say-
"Everybodys looking for their niche, babe. What's your niche?"
...and people are out there looking for a cult-like figure to follow and worship.

But Dearest Blaise and Martin, we humbly await your documentation, and then will welcome you with open arms, and I will apologize for all our sins...

Hock


Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: JimH on May 08, 2005, 07:49:50 AM
If you throw out enough crap people will listen ,even  groups who should know better and should research the claims before they hire these people get scammed.

Once hired by a credible group then you are free to spread more crap as you have been sort of verified as a true talent.

If the person claims to be one of a few who have trained in an art that NO ONE has ever heard of ,send the RED Flags up or look at your BS meter.

There is a Guy in NJ ,with a National/international organization.
His original style looked a bit Hapkido based and  then it became a Pain compliance art that was sold as the only art police departments should be using.

His original claims were that he was one of only 12 people in the world ever exposed to a secret deadly art,of which he is now the Head/Grandmaster.
He then entered the Government and they spotted his skill level and he instructed the deadliest aspects of the art to US spies from the CIA and other Government agencies,all so secret his affiliation and training can never be told,lol..
(No one I know in any of these agencies ever heard of him,guess they were not high enough up the pole)

He sold these lies to some local NJ law enforcement groups and now he has credibility,he is even on TV ,radio and in print as an expert on crime,self defense and even terrorism.

He then went on to be an expert witness in prosecution of people who instruct Self defense when someone makes a claim of injury.
He was at a Hall of Fame dinner saying"If you do not participate in my course ,I will see you in court".(threats to make sales).

He even bought a huge complex now where he trains groups in self defense all the way to weapons,Body Guards to anti/counter terrorism.
(Full page ads in the martial art mags)

Are that many people this Gullible?

Are that many organizations that unable to verify and vet these people before they hire them?

People screamed about fake masters and instructors in the 70s and 80s,and those guys had small schools,someone should scream about these fakes that gain credibility from a line of crap and become respected experts and make tons of money.

Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: kayakpirate on May 08, 2005, 08:38:23 AM
Right on, JimH.
The snake oil is running thick on this one.A very "Count Dante" moment to it.
Did you see the web site of the guy Hock gave the link to? Whats next? Walking on water classes as taught by the ancient Aztec mummies? The picture of the aging mall rats charging accross the feild
made me feel kind of sorry for them...after I stopped laughing...The idea of running around these guys with swords in their hands( didnt mom tell you not to run with scissors?) gives me the freaking willies.
Maybe they're all good guys who just want somethng different than the typical "karate kiddie  care center" has to offer. But DAMN ! Lets not get goofy about it.
As to your N.J. expert, From what I can tell police depts. dont always make the best choices for
training.Once someone gets on the inside the powers that be are too embarrassed to correct the problem and hope it will just go away on its own.In the mean time the snake oil gets thicker.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on May 08, 2005, 09:21:18 AM
There is a Guy in NJ ,with a National/international organization.
His original style looked a bit Hapkido based and  then it became a Pain compliance art that was sold as the only art police departments should be using.


...and that I believe would be CDT (we may as well say...)
Tom fell into some money and was able to start a regular, color ad campaign. (The real, secret ingrediant to success and notoriety) As far as that big complex and those bodyguard school color ads? I am not to sure the big advertised shootem' up, ultimate seminar ever actually occured? There was no date listed and I heard they waited until enough people pre-registered (big $$$) before even starting. I heard it is has not happened. I could be wrong! I know many NJ Hapkido people (I am from NJ originally) who liked Tom in the old Hapkido days and they liked what they did. Now? No.

I also interface with all kinds of cops, all over the world, and CDT really isn't a blip on the police radar screen. One example? CDT is never advertsied in ANY police magazine, and I have to get all of them to stay abreast of things. The ad appeal is to martial artists and the MA magazines- in particular-the MA business ones, a place where school owners can be reached and expensive, blood-sucking, franchises can be sought.

In the big picture,
I get all over and talk to hundreds of people a month. Internally, many of these known organizations are at a slow crumble inside. Over-priced, restrictive and some based on riduculous concepts. Some of the big ad names we see in magazines are secretly scrambling to innovate and survive.

"There is a sucker born every minute." These suckers need to be found, sold a franchise and then sucked into bankruptcy, just in time for the next birth.....and so it goes...

Hock
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: gumbey on May 08, 2005, 03:43:05 PM
Sooner or later, it be an ad advocating fighting arts of the Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon caveman and a free wooden club or a prehistoric dagger as an extra bonus gift.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Nick Hughes on May 08, 2005, 09:29:03 PM
gumbey, you've hacked my computer and read my business plan haven't you? :)
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: fabbe on May 09, 2005, 06:08:55 AM
Speaking of background stories: Does anyone here know the story behind "Modern Defendo CQB" and Mr. Bill Wolfe?

The reason I'm asking is because Modern Defendo is pretty "hyped" here in Sweden at the moment. A number of Krav Maga instructors recently decided to (more or less) quit teaching Krav Maga and do Defendo instead, so you hear quite a lot about this system right now - and, consequently, also a lot about "WWII combatives", Fairbairn, Sykes, "military techniques" etc. etc.

On the Modern Defendo web site - http://www.defendo.com - they say that it is "a cutting edge extension of Fairbairn's original system" and that it "reflects an evolution and modernization of the system to address real world violence as it occurs today".

All the B/W video clips showing WWII combat training (from Camp X and Camp B) and all the quotations and name-dropping of combatives dignitaries such Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate and Biddle sure make you believe that Modern Defendo is pretty much based on WWII combatives. But if you check out their instructional videos (e.g. the C.O.R.E or B.R.I.C.K videos), you won't find very much material that can be traced directly back to what Fairbairn et al. were teaching. Well, at least I can't see the connection…  ???

Don't get me wrong, I like quite a lot of what I saw on these videos - and Mr. Wolfe seems to be a very skilled and accomplished instructor -  but the system he teaches looks a lot more like Hapkido, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and kickboxing than anything from Fairnbairn/Applegate/Sykes. If you have a quick look at Mr. Wolfe's bio on the Defendo web site, you'll also notice that he has a long background in some of these arts (e.g. Hapkido and thaiboxing).

So my question is this: Is Modern Defendo really based on Fairbairn's teachings or is the whole "WWII combatives" thing only used as a marketing ploy - in the same way as Mr. Loong uses Vikings and Indians? As I said, I have the highest respect for Mr. Wolfe's skills, but I'm not sure what to think about his marketing strategy. Is it real, Memorex or just tissue paper...?

/Fabian
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: JimH on May 09, 2005, 11:34:40 AM
The key word is MODERN.

What is being hyped as Defendo by Mr Wolfe is Hapkido.

Mr Wolfe's Martial Background is Hapkido.

Modern defendo is Hapkido some basic Boxing and Bill's brother teaches some basic ground fighting.

The funny part is that all the strikes that were the core of attacks in F/S are called dirty trick strikes by Mr Wolfe.
(attacks to throat,neck,eyes

Since the Majority of what was taught By F/S was Jujitsu based some techniques look/are similar,as in the joint locks,but Mr Wolfe took the directness,simplicity and offense out of true Defendo/u and what is shown in his bricks and core are all hapkido based technique.

Not that what he teaches does not or would not work,but what he teaches is his Modern Variation of what he believes Denfendo/u was/is.

Again Great hype and the ability to spin a fraction of truth into a money maker.

If he called it Hapkido how many takers would  he have?
(the same exact stuff can be seen on Combat hapkido material with Pelligrini or Hapkido with Master So,even jujitsu videos with Wally Jay or Miquel Ibarra)
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: seanross on May 09, 2005, 12:01:47 PM
Check out www.bullshido.com .  It is a website dedicated to exposing martial arts frauds and hype.  I think they coined the term "McDojo" to describe the all to common belt factory.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Professor on May 10, 2005, 06:10:03 AM
I guess this is just a losing battle.     ::)  Please refer to the first post in the thread as questions about instructors are posed.....
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Milldog1776 on May 13, 2005, 11:52:37 AM
I once swatted a Viking with my Beret! The move was so effective, I didn't get to use any of my Appalachian Indian burns on him.

I have a comprehensive 12 part video series coming out soon. Then you can fight like me...and fear no man or beast alive! ;D
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: lakerssportsfan on May 21, 2005, 12:46:34 AM
Using Bullshido as an authoritative source on anything, no matter how credible it may appear and even if it were valid, is as credible as citing the KKK on anything. ::)

That place supposedly is devoted to debunking BS in the martial arts is really against anything that isnt mixed martial art or some component of mixed martial arts, and does so in the most juvenile, hateful terms. This includes just about all self defense and RBSD. They think people who rely on weapons are paranoid and weak and dismiss all energy drills and such.

They tend to be obsessed with certain self defense instructors like Franco and spend an inordinate amount of time trashing him under the guise of an investigation.  I have not verified all of ther allegations, but they started by claiming that Sammy Franco was never on the CBS show 48 hours since they could not find him doing a search on that website. Well I know he was on the show because I remember it.  This is typical of their research. I did not look over every item on their list, but I suspect it is a combination of them not doing good research and deliberately wanting to smear someone, and him inflating his resume the way many people inflate their resumes

And I am surprised that anyone would cite a forum as a source that has a thread wishing for the violent rape of one of the moderators of this forum:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11560&highlight=meredith+gold

They dislike people and what they teach enough to want to see them violently raped and beaten to prove what they teach does not work. this is the type of mindset that exists there.

Are they anyone to cite on anything?
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: kamagong on June 04, 2005, 10:05:47 AM
Is it just me, or does it seem that it is the really big lies that put these guys on the map.  It is not something like, "Has been teaching the Martial Arts for 15 years" but, "Exclusive Martial Arts Teacher to the French Military for 15 years".   ;D

Even on a smaller level this stuff happens.  In the small town I live in, we have a guy who for years claimed to be a certified instructor under a famous Filippino martial arts instructor.  At his school, he taught JKD, Capoiera, Muay Thai, MMA, and Wing-Chun (which was the only thing he was actually certified in at the time).  He was a decent fighter and made his rep by going around to the smaller schools in the area and challenging their instructors and having his assistant instructor beat them.  The funny thing is that other than Wing-Chun, he had learned everything else by video tape and going to a handfull of seminars.  On his sign, flyers, t-shirts, etc. he used copyrighted material.  Those of us in the MA community knew his claims were false because we checked up on him.  He got away with this for years, and has never got caught, in fact, he discredited others by telling everyone they were not legitimate.  He is now certified under many of the people he claimed before and runs the biggest school in town with many instructors under him.  Life is funny huh  ;) !
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on July 01, 2005, 12:32:42 PM
He is now certified under many of the people he claimed before and runs the biggest school in town with many instructors under him.

Not an uncommon tale at all.
You can't say much about him now to new people.
But you remember when he lied and deceived all the through the process.

Hock
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on July 10, 2005, 09:13:47 PM
“Hock…we are Johnson Outfitters, the newest, biggest, best and baddest uniform and gear supply company on the market. We are creating a new catalog and well…we’d like for you and a few other "known" trainers to be in our new catalog. We plan on hitting the SF market real hard and well… we’d like for you to dress up as a Green Beret in this next catalog.  Whatta’ ya’ say?”

<<<>>>

Ok. What do you say? I think you say no. I was not a Green Beret and I would REALLY feel uncomfortable and just plain phony and bad dressing up as one. 

Does anyone disagree?

Now, does anyone feel a little strange about martial artist Steve Tarani dressing up as a cop in the 511 catalogs that have slam-flooded the cop/military market over the last four months? Am I just being anal-retentive?

Hock
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Joe Hubbard on July 11, 2005, 03:28:59 AM
Yeah, I totally agree!  I saw that and thought to myself- is Tarani a cop?  Very misleading to the public.

Ciao

Joe
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: kamagong on July 11, 2005, 11:15:24 AM
I gotta agree with Hock and Joe on this one too.  I would feel very uncomfortable dressing up as something I have never been.  Such as military uniforms, police officer uniforms, prison guard uniforms, etc.  Wearing BDU's  and a T-shirt or some such thing is one thing.  You have to dress for your audience, but, giving the impression that you have been or are something you are not is deceptive! 

Steve Tarani is marketing his new Kerambit material heavily to law enforcement and military personel.  Honestly, it seems that regular folks have almost no interest in edged weapons any more. 
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on July 11, 2005, 11:27:06 AM
"Steve Tarani is marketing his new Kerambit material heavily to law enforcement and military personel." 

...and he will have some success. There is a non-curved buck knife (I think) that is not curved and feels real good, that he was involved with promoting. I'd like to have one.

>When you are in field, whistles and bells and curves can limit the full functions of an edged tool.

>and as I said on the knife forum, police cannot afford to carry Klingon knives in CIA quick draw holsters.

I think if he had been a soldier or a cop, he would have known this from the start. Eventually, he interviewed some cops for the Buck and what did they want? A no-whistle, bo-bell, straight knife. The curve absolutely limits the knife and gets in the way.

Hock


Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Trembula on July 12, 2005, 07:15:30 AM
I think the folks who dress up tend to be the same ones who suffer from "SPS" (also typically the ones driving whacked out vehicles and other signs of compensating for something small...). Unless somebody is a veteran and wearing their old utilities, I don't think most of these instructors should be wearing them.

What is wrong with just wearing the following?

Cargo Pants, BDU Trou (preferably not camo patterned), or Jeans and a T-Shirt (logos and unit shirts are fine... lots of units give them to guest instructors) or something more substantial depending on the weather... Kitting up with certain gear would be kosher too if that is what you are training the folks to use. But playing dress up for a catalog or video (unless one checked that box at some point in their career and rates/rated whatever unit they are wearing).

The serious folks are interested in the material and how well the instructor presents it, not what he is wearing. Chairborne Commandos on the other hand....

Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Nick Hughes on July 12, 2005, 01:06:22 PM
I tend to agree but don't really have an issue with someone wearing cammo BDUs who wasn't in the military.  To begin with, they're available for hunters to wear.  As long as the guy is not claiming to have been in the military if he wasn't, and isn't wearing any medals or insignia he didn't earn I don't care.

I wear them when I teach FIST.  It's based on military unarmed combat and I was in the Foreign Legion.  I don't want to wear my TMA pants in there 'cause I'm not teaching TMA when I teach the other stuff.  Jeans aren't an option.  I think we went over that here somewhere in another thread...the rivets can rip mats and gym equipment.  I've tried wearing sweats but they end up falling off during grappling (which is not good) and spandex like the MMA boys like to wear is about the gayest shite I've ever seen anyone get up in (unless you're in the Tour de France).

N
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Joe Hubbard on July 12, 2005, 06:13:37 PM
I agree with Ninor- you should wear what you want to.  The deal here though is on page 12 of the recent 5.11 catalogue Steve Tarani is wearing a police badge on his belt.  That’s what Hock meant by him masquerading as a cop.  Sweats, cammos and/or jeans?  Whatever you feel comfortable in.

Ciao

Joe
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Trembula on July 13, 2005, 07:10:52 AM
Maybe Tarani is a "reserve officer"? If that were an armed option in MD, I would try to be one of those myself...

Dan
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: mercop on July 22, 2005, 07:38:54 AM
I guess because saying, let work on body mechanics and common attacks ain't sexy enough. 

I have found that teaching military and police is not very lucrative.  One I feel bad taking there money and usualy do it for dinner or beer.  Two they don't have a lot of money and their unit does not want to pay.  This group can spot a bull shitter fast.

Civilians believe most of what they see and hear until they are burned.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: whitewolf on August 14, 2008, 12:13:20 PM
Any type BDU/military type pants-t  shirts-wrestling shoes-works for me-if they want to wear a gee or shorts also no  problem-wearing a badge while working out is stupid-
add mouth piece and cup if it gets to going to  ground -oh i forgot bring your VLB with bat inside if  needed. whitewolf (ELB)   
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: noload on August 14, 2008, 03:59:12 PM
...and that I believe would be CDT (we may as well say...)
Tom fell into some money and was able to start a regular, color ad campaign. (The real, secret ingrediant to success and notoriety) As far as that big complex and those bodyguard school color ads? I am not to sure the big advertised shootem' up, ultimate seminar ever actually occured? There was no date listed and I heard they waited until enough people pre-registered (big $$$) before even starting. I heard it is has not happened. I could be wrong! I know many NJ Hapkido people (I am from NJ originally) who liked Tom in the old Hapkido days and they liked what they did. Now? No.

I also interface with all kinds of cops, all over the world, and CDT really isn't a blip on the police radar screen. One example? CDT is never advertsied in ANY police magazine, and I have to get all of them to stay abreast of things. The ad appeal is to martial artists and the MA magazines- in particular-the MA business ones, a place where school owners can be reached and expensive, blood-sucking, franchises can be sought.

In the big picture,
I get all over and talk to hundreds of people a month. Internally, many of these known organizations are at a slow crumble inside. Over-priced, restrictive and some based on riduculous concepts. Some of the big ad names we see in magazines are secretly scrambling to innovate and survive.

"There is a sucker born every minute." These suckers need to be found, sold a franchise and then sucked into bankruptcy, just in time for the next birth.....and so it goes...

Hock

A friend of mine who is a dojo owner bought into the CDT franchise and lost money. He was pretty serious about making it work even offering a weekly class that would last at least for 2 hours and many times even longer. We'd go over the "secret" instructor tapes see what looked workable and practice those, ignored the nonsense ones that looked more suitable for a demonstration. One of the things that kept some of his karate students away was all the pain they were afraid of feeling. ;D

As self defense CDT sucked (for many reasons) but many of the techniques were good replacements for ones that could injure a training partner. Was fun to use them during one steps & sparring.

Surprised nobody mentioned my personal favorites, Hwarangdo and Echanis. Dr. Bang looked like he had some mad skills but the entire monk thing was like the plot of a cheap chop socky flick.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: whitewolf on August 14, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
Hock- I think BB has a special  staff who  writes the advertising for them to sucker in the unenitiated and young so the mag  will make $$$

When I travel in Europe I look at the self defense mags that are in English-for the most  part they seem to be more honest in their articles and advertisng-what do you think??
WW
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: noload on August 14, 2008, 07:30:35 PM
Black Belt is releasing the Enchanis books again, with some mystical verbage, like, "secrets hidden away because of shock"...something like that...

Hock

Ahhh, the infamous Black Book on knife fighting. I have that one along with the other two and there isn't much in them that's shocking but it is flowery. I am still surprised how the Echanis mythology keeps on going.

Here's an old post from the Blade Forums by Bob Duggan on Echanis. Duggan was one of the first HRD black belts but was defrocked by Dr. Bang.

07-23-2001, 08:14 AM
By the Swallow

Mahone, "My relationship with Echanis". You provoked some very old menories that have been stirring around in my little head, since I fell on to this Thread. It has taken me a few days to sort them out, and I had to dig out my old notebooks. I confess to ambivalence. As Donnelly posted on the his thread, there is the Myth and there is the Reality.
It is never simple to figure out what part is myth and what part is reality. Echanis is more than an enigma, he is a phenomenon. Here we are discussing a man nearly twenty-five years after his rather messy assassination, and it is as if it occurred last month. People collect his books as priceless jems while others consider them the flotsam and jetsam of martial arts detritus. I am afraid that I am to be counted among the latter.

But let me tell you about the phenomenon. I will start with last night. I had dinner last night with Pete Dordal, a 1984 ESI graduate and a very bright and successful Protection Specialist. When he came to ESI, he was a Force Recon Marine; for four years, Dortal was Marine Sniper and special tactics Instructor in all manor of stealth. He was an admirer of Echanis; used his material in instruction, especially in regards to Sentry Takeout (unfortunately, Randy Wanner should have received the credit here, but that is part of the puzzle). During our dinner, the subject of Echanis came up, and I mentioned the discussion going on in this Thread. I, of course, expressed my distain for the phenomenon and the man, and made reference to his "Love of Death" pointing out that he may have acquired it while he served in Vietnam as a Sniper with "29 Confirmed Kills" Ref. Echanis. Dordal looked puzzled, and said, "there is no reference to Echanis being a Sniper." Dordal would know because he made a careful study of Vietnam Snipers both Marine and Army as part of his instuctional syllabus. Then he said, "Was he in Vietnam?" and I said, "well ****, he said he was in Vietnam and that he was a Sniper with 29 confirmed kills." I believed it because it confirmed the reasons that I didn't like him. Then I had to laugh at myself. I never investigated because the myth fit my pre-conceived notions of the man and his persona.

It also fit that he hired out to work for Somosa; I didn't like him for that either, but that is not the point. As for his anti-communism, he would have just as happily worked for the Sandinistas, if the money was better. He was assassinated because he decided to attach his star to a conspiracy by the top Field Commader of the Army, Jose Alegrett to over throw Somosa...the person who paid Echanis' salary. The conspiracy was uncovered, and Somosa had the problem snuffed out....but Somosa got his a few years later in Uruguay when some revolutionaries hit him with a rocket that ripped his armoured limosine to shreds, and the occupant's heads with it.

Well, what does all this prove? Nothing I suppose; nothing has ever been proven much less investigated, but I choose to believe it. It fit the myth of Echanis.

In my opinion, he was not a skilled martial artists, but the myth says he was phenomenonal. The myth says he was a warrior, a Vietnam Vet with a career of 29 kills; the vets say, they never heard of him. The myths say that he was the first Ninja; others think that he was a good publicists. He knew how to get published. Even when he took all the money left in the La Habra school, and disappeared into the night, ending up in Fort Bragg to teach classes in hand to hand combat, stealth and other fun things, Joo Bang Lee welcomed hiim back when he saw the opportunity to reach elite military forces with little known art of Hwa Rang Do. So, with approval from Black Belt in hand, Mike posed with the Grand Master to prove his lineage. Those of us around the Headquarters scatched our collective heads, and shrugged, "it is the same ol', same ol'". Its business.

During this period, I was spending more and more time in Colorado, and the Aspen Academy of Martial Arts. In 1980, I started ESI and never returned to California.

By 1986, my relations with Hwa Rang Do and the Lee Family had deteriorated to point of no return. Coincidentally, it started over an article in Black Belt by Henry Lee, Joo Bang Lee's eldest son, who wrote that Mike Echanis was the first American student of Hwa Rang Do. Now, I took umbrage at this obvious mis-statement of Hwa Rang Do history, and I wrote an open letter to Henry and all the other instructors. Henry responded in typical Little Master form, and I engaged him. It is one of my favorite blood sports. It was probably motivated by ego, jealousy and other cheap shot base human emotions, but it was also a lie.

After Henry suggested that I prove my loyalty to Hwa Rang Do, by appointting his father, Joo Bang Lee, President of ESI, and I suggested that Henry Lee was "a vain glorious pimp" and in the same letter, I wrote uncautiously, "You presumptous ass!" I was no longer held in high esteem in Downey. It was another decade before I became a criminal, and my dastardly acts posted on the Web. I note with irony that after ten years or more of being blacklisted by Black Belt, Joo Bang Lee is on the cover of current issue of Black Belt, and Henry Lee is demonstrating technique on a willing opponent...always the best kind.

So, all the little threads come together here. Odd, I think, but you never know what comes across the path, or which way you will turn until you are faced with a choice. I have made a number of them, and many of them very bad ones. Mahone, I am not going to re-tell my colorful revolutionary days because I published those in Gung Ho in 1984, and left those ideas in their grave more than a quarter century ago. But I just want to make one last comment about Myth and Reality regarding Echanis.

In the case of Echanis, the Myth is great, and the Reality quite another story. Yet, I must admit that the myth of Echanis has inspired a lot of martial artists to pursue their own dream. One cannot deny it, and it is a good thing. So, I understand the feeling of some who see stripping the Myth as cheap and rank.

Myth has driven many of us towards some unattainable dream. I personally participated in it as did others. I fomented other myths regarding my art, Hwa Rang Do. When I wrote the introduction to Joo Bang Lee's "The Ancient Art of Hwa Rang Do", I fostered the myth of the direct lineage descent of the ancient warrior art and the modern creation of Joo Bang Lee. I wanted to believe that myth; it sustained me in a way that no other could. To believe that this ancient knowledge was preserved by hermit monks for hundreds of years gives the art a completeness, a historic connection to something of value, almost holy. But alas, it is a myth, like a lot of other things I have believed in. Should I make fun of it? Cheapen it by pointing out the historic impossibility? Discourage others from believing? Well my friends, I need a little help on that question.

Mahone, thanks for the provocation. Farang
Bob Duggan



BTW, Here's Duggan's bio...
http://www.esi-lifeforce.com/about-us/staff/officers-owners-and-governing-board.html
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: seanross on August 14, 2008, 08:34:48 PM
I haven't been on this thread for a while.  I notice someone objected to quoting anything from bullshido.com because there was an over-the-top post about wishing someone was raped and because the site tends to favor mixed martial arts and reality based self defense styles.  Well....  There are articles about various lesbian sex practices on wikipedia for which I have little use in my day job, but I still use the site because it also has articles about functionals of random variables - and other stuff I find relevant and useful.  If bullshido.com just really yanks your chain -- forget I mentioned it.  Otherwise, it might have something occasionally useful on it. Personally, I like the videos of real street fights.  They don't look like karate tournaments.  They don't look like mma matches, though mma is a little closer.

I also find the admission of myth building by noload intriguing.  I wonder how many people would go to church on Sunday if it was, "Just treat each other decent, OK?"  Creation, God, hell, forgiveness, ritual make it all so much more interesting.  I don't mind the myth as long as the core, "treat each other decently" gets in there too.  Same with Martial arts.  My tai chi school has a "secret clan" into which I was "adopted" and we bow and have stories about the founders, blah, blah, blah.  If that helps you have fun and show up to work out - good for you.  On the other hand, if the myth helps you to disrespect everyone else and rip people off, then I have a problem.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: arnold on August 15, 2008, 04:22:31 AM
Sorta like Uncle Nicky and the Easter Bunny. Here you have it all. Quasi religious holiday, children's story, infatuation, chocolate. But most of all, Nicky in his pink bunny suit! ::)
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Nick Hughes on August 15, 2008, 08:43:39 AM
Do not mock the bunny tin-head.  ;)

Yer Uncle Knuckles
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Benjamin Liu on August 15, 2008, 11:49:04 AM
I bought "Knife Fighting/Knife Throwing For Combat" recently, mainly because it is a "classic" and I collect books.  Some act as if it is junk and others as if it is the best knife-fighting book ever written, and I've seen originals go for hundreds of dollars, so, to know the truth, spending $12.00 or so on Amazon wasn't a big deal.  There is nothing special, it is mostly what I'd expect from a (non-FMA) martial arts book teaching knife use.  IMO the movements are too big.  I've seen worse in the MA magazines.  SOme have said that rolling with a knife is too complex, but if you know how to roll then it is just rolling while holding a knife, though I'd agree that if someone is not trained to roll it would be difficult to learn to do so, especially with a knife, from a book.

In short, it isn't the worst book on knife fighting, but it certainly isn't the best.  I don't get why it was "banned" by Ohara.  It would have sold all these years like the other two in the series, and it isn't some super-secret or super-deadly manual or anything like that.  Considering that it was out of print for many years, they couldn't have been using the marketing strategy to restrict a product for "police only" to create demand and then release it to the public.

I read an article by one John LaTourrette, one of Echanis' instructors, who said that Echanis wrote the books so he'd get publicity for his mercenary work, and that he hardly got any money from them.  Before that I assumed that the concept of writing a book as marketing for your real business was a new one.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Benjamin Liu on August 15, 2008, 12:03:58 PM
This has been read a lot lately by guests...

Hock


That is probably due to the reference to the Bullshido rape thread, which is what this thread has in common to the old WWII thread that started up again in the military combatives section.



I haven't been on this thread for a while.  I notice someone objected to quoting anything from bullshido.com because there was an over-the-top post about wishing someone was raped and because the site tends to favor mixed martial arts and reality based self defense styles.  Well....  There are articles about various lesbian sex practices on wikipedia for which I have little use in my day job, but I still use the site because it also has articles about functionals of random variables - and other stuff I find relevant and useful. 


There is a big difference here.  Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, which by definition should cover just about everything whether people agree with it or not.

It also shouldn't be used as an authoritive source of information since anyone can edit it.  I've seen articles that look like kids added their cartoon fantasies to real-life topics, something that happens in the martial arts articles.  Usually science-related articles are safe from such tampering, but when looking up info on whales for a co-worker who is interested in them, the Sperm Whale article had some realy idiotic "facts" and was obviously edited as a joke.

I mainly find it useful to find some info on a topic I don't know anything about to point me in a direction to find other info on it.

Bullshido, on the other hand, is full of the types of attitudes that are shown in their rape thread.  I've read various Bullshido threads over the years, and those types of posts are typical of the atmosphere over there, it is just that the suggestion of a self-defense instructor being raped as being a good thing is the worst thing I've read on a martial arts forum and low even for Bullshido.

Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: noload on August 15, 2008, 05:46:23 PM
I also find the admission of myth building by noload intriguing.  I wonder how many people would go to church on Sunday if it was, "Just treat each other decent, OK?"  Creation, God, hell, forgiveness, ritual make it all so much more interesting.  I don't mind the myth as long as the core, "treat each other decently" gets in there too.  Same with Martial arts.  My tai chi school has a "secret clan" into which I was "adopted" and we bow and have stories about the founders, blah, blah, blah.  If that helps you have fun and show up to work out - good for you.  On the other hand, if the myth helps you to disrespect everyone else and rip people off, then I have a problem.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.

What surprises me about mythology in the martial arts isn't that it exists, but that it exists where I didn't expect it. It's common in many now traditional martial arts and has been there forever, but what surprises me is that it's also flourishing in the reality based MA arena. Another surprise was the type and extent of the mythology being created by some of these guys; They're supermen with more missions under their belts than many full time operators, they're better trained and know more than full time operators. All the while running their business and holding down a day job.
The last surprise for me was how many professionals you'd think would know better bought into some of the BS.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.
Not sure about that. Doing things in the martial arts because it's traditional is one thing, but selling a myth as if it's the truth is another.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: JimH on August 15, 2008, 06:58:16 PM
Mike Echanis was never a Ranger nor was he ever a Special Forces operator.
(Mike may have served in the Army,got to the rank of E-3 ,but was never awarded an MOS???)

Mike did teach a hand to hand course at the JFK Warfare center to some Special Forces members.

Mike is believed to have had a connection with or was connected to the CIA in some fashion,possible through Solder of Fortune Mag, and this is how he came to be in Nicaragua.

A myth  Can be :
An extreme of an event.
An Extreme of a persons deeds.
An imaginary or unverifiable existence of an Event or Deed.

To Bad Too Many find the need to develop Imaginary Deeds and they become Myths because those who back them never check them and their claims out.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: seanross on August 16, 2008, 09:25:29 AM

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.
Not sure about that. Doing things in the martial arts because it's traditional is one thing, but selling a myth as if it's the truth is another.

Yeah, thats the rub.  If you don't believe the myth is true to a certain extent, it loses its power.  If the local evangelical protestant church were to say, "God, Jesus and salvation are myths we use to help us be better people." they would be down to a handful of members.

Even the idea that we do certain things in the martial arts because they are traditional - is likely a myth.  We have some idea of what was really traditional in Tai Chi - because it was invented less than 150 years ago and there are family documents.  Just how far back do the records go on some of the other martial arts?  Do we really know what was or was not traditional? Or is it more accurate to say we know what our teacher and maybe his teacher tell us?
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: JimH on August 16, 2008, 12:26:41 PM
God,Jesus and Salvation maybe myths but they were not creation of God or Jesus,they were the stories created and told by countless others about things they related to a power Greater than themselves,and the live of Jesus is written as depicted by others not written to taut himself. (as some self creators of Martial arts/self defense Do)

Tradition alone does not make something a myth.
Tradition just means it is supposed to be as it was created and handed down,roughly,in the manner the developer of the art saw fit.
But
Everyone who becomes a teacher changes adds and subtracts from the way they were taught,(just human nature)
So
We are the product of our Teachers,not of tradition,though the core art maybe  traditional.
Our students will be the product of us and our knowledge base as applied to the traditional core art.

The Myth of an art would be the acts of one person or the stories of one person
such as a fighter who comes upon a samurai and catches the sharp Blade in his hands and defeats the Samurai.
or
A person who proclaims to actually catch Bullets in his teeth.
(now back in the day of Aaron Banks shows in NY there was a guy who entered the ring and Supposedly caught a .22 round in a metal cup in his mouth,lol)

People who create and perpetuate their OWN Myth Status  as being the worlds greatest (whatever) are usually BS artists.
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: seanross on August 16, 2008, 03:22:25 PM
Ok.  Now I understand the distinction.  You (and I) are OK with myths relating to historical or heavenly figures so long as they are used to motivate people to train and learn, but not with someone who makes themselves out to be more than human.

Agreed then.

And now, off to cook my dinner with a glance of my heat-ray vision. ;)
Title: Re: Indians, Berets, SWAT and Vikings
Post by: Hock on October 07, 2010, 09:41:24 AM
Fun to re-read!

Hock
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