Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Gun Fighting => Topic started by: 5shot on October 15, 2010, 10:53:55 PM

Title: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on October 15, 2010, 10:53:55 PM
I am a firm believer that for effective shooting, the sights must be in alignment and placed on the target.

Here's a link to a homemade video titled Survival Point Shooting that I just uploaded to U-Tube. You may find it of interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk)

Here is a link to a text + pics version:
http://www.pointshooting.com/1aimedps.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/1aimedps.htm)

I put them together as a general response to an ILEETA based article in Police Magazine that was touting that Officers need to "aim when they train" so they will Point Shoot well under stress. Here's a link to that article and one of mine that responds specifically to the content of the article:

Police Mag: http://www.policemag.com/Blog/Firearms-And-Tactics/Story/2010/04/ILEETA-Force-Panel-Debates-Point-Shooting-vs-Aimed-Fire.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/Blog/Firearms-And-Tactics/Story/2010/04/ILEETA-Force-Panel-Debates-Point-Shooting-vs-Aimed-Fire.aspx)

My direct response: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aalexis.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/1aalexis.htm)

As long as "Sight Shooters" keep bringing up their theory that SS is the cat's meow for combat, IMHO, a response is in order.

Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years to millions and millions.

Yet there are no pics or videos of it being used effectively in a close quarters life threat situation. There should be hundreds to thousands of them, but they are as rare as hen's teeth.

What the scientific studies and stats have shown, is that Sight Shooting fails to be used in most all close quarters life threat situations, either due to poor lighting, the dynamics of the situations, or the automatic activation of our Fight or Flight response and its effects, one of which is the loss of the ability to focus on near objects like the sights.

To train Officers and the public to use Sight Shooting, which is a proven failure in close quarters life threat situations, or to supply them with opinions and unproven theories to use in their self defense, will leave them with no practical and effective shooting method to use to stay alive in close quarters life threat situations.

As such, they will be set up to be shot and/or killed in situations where there is the greatest likely hood of that happening.

And to me, that is immoral, if not criminal.

..........

The following is from a research article on the SureSight site that deals with the use of the sights in gunfights.

"It is an acknowledged fact that very few gunfight survivors ever remember seeing their sights at all during a life-threatening encounter. In other words, regardless of the amount of practice using the sights at the target range, the vast majority of shootout survivors are unable to see their sights when faced with life-threatening stress. One study found that when faced with stress, "93% of officers focused on the threat, not the weapon, and 88% of the officers resorted to binocular vision.'

If you know of a pic/s or a video/s of sight shooting being used effectively in CQ Gunfights, please send me a link to it/them. I will post the links to a page on my site that is dedicated to that purpose. To date its blank as the total I know of or have been made aware of since Jan 2000 = 0.

Here's a link to it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm)

I consider Point Shooting of ANY TYPE to be better for real life threat close quarters situations than Sight Shooting. Most are not a bar to using the sights if they can be seen and used, and there is time for that.

Here's a link to an article on my site about a Chicago Policeman who has been in 14 gunfights, shot 9, 5 died. He practices Point Shooting and at close range.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm)

Here's Jack Ruby giving Oswald the bird and killing him using P&S.

(http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Ruby/rubyshot.JPG)

Note Ruby's middle finger is clearly thru the trigger guard and was used to pull the trigger. (The picture was made just after Oswald was shot.)
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: whitewolf on October 16, 2010, 11:46:00 AM
5 shot and other combat shooters- i reviewed the vidio-makes sense but my only questions are -1- where on your middle finger does the trigger fit-next to tip or near edge of first and second joint-and 2nd is this style good for furrther distance shooting?
Mr yaoob (spelling ??) says trigger should be near crease of first and second joint not the tip... And he has been around for 30 years and is a expert.

I would imagine that dry firing would help as i never have fired before using middle finger to pull the trigger.
thanks- WW
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on October 17, 2010, 03:33:38 PM
Ayoob, IMHO, has been and remains a Sight Shooting advocate. Note the lopsided makup of the panel in the article discussed.

As to which finger part or joint on the trigger, I never have considered it even when Sight Shooting. Looks like Ruby's middle joint must be on the trigger.

..........

Here's what happens when you flex your finger:

Both the index finger and the middle finger can be flexed and extended separately.

When you first squeeze or pull the trigger, the end of your finger does not move directly back against the trigger. It moves in an arc.

That happens because of the physical arrangement of the muscles and tendons of the fingers which are put into play when a finger is flexed.

They flex the middle portion of a finger first. And as the middle knuckle is its fulcrum, the first movement of the end of the finger will be an arc with its center point being, the middle knuckle.

It is only after the middle portion of the finger has flexed some, that the end of the finger begins to flex more directly back against the trigger.

As such, placing the first pad of a finger on the trigger may cause you to miss your shot, and particularly in a rapid fire situation where the possibility of your being able to squeeze the trigger smoothly until each shot breaks will be questionable.

Placing the crease between the first and second pad of the finger on the trigger, or placing the middle pad of the finger on the trigger can reduce the amount of arc that is introduced when the finger is flexed to pull the trigger.

Using the middle finger to pull the trigger, can help with this situation because:

1. It is longer than the index finger, so it is easier to place the crease between the first and second pads of the middle finger on the trigger, or to place the second pad on the trigger.

2. The tendon used to flex the middle finger, runs more directly from the front to the back of the hand than the tendon used to flex the index finger. So less torque will be introduced if the middle finger is used to pull the trigger. That can be important with a heavy trigger pull, such as with a double action gun where the trigger finger is used to both cock and fire the gun.

3. The middle finger also is also stronger than the index finger which helps to make for a smooth and sure pull of the trigger even with considerable resistance.

......

When I point-n-shoot as fast as I can, I don't squeeze the trigger. As soon as I am pointing at the target, I shoot. And I do that for each shot.

(http://www.pointshooting.com/target1.jpg)
(http://www.pointshooting.com/target3.jpg)
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: whitewolf on October 17, 2010, 07:20:50 PM
Thank You -excellent info-i will start practising in the manner you mentioned here
WW
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: lakerssportsfan on November 09, 2010, 11:07:45 PM
Whitewolf,

You need to exercize a bit more discretion as to who you listen to from the Internet. 

The man who posts as 5shot is a legend for having been banned from just about every credible gunboard for his nonsense.

Pulling the trigger with the middle finger is nonsense.  The normal trigger finger is more dextrous and you need the middle finger wrapped around the grip of the gun to give you better control whehter you are shooting the gun or just drawing it.  If you want to point shoot, simply use the barrel or slide of the gun to do your pointing.  There is no need to put your pointing figure along side.

Here is a link to a thread where the 5shot was banned from 10-8 forums, a place where you need to prove military or law enforcement background or 40 hours of civilian training to be able to post:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=7104&Number=67149#Post67149 (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=7104&Number=67149#Post67149)

In it, Hilton Yam, one of the top 1911 gunsmiths in the country who is himself a federal agent and trainer and member of that agency's SWAT team writes:

"Mr. Veit:
You had been warned repeatedly that this place is not like all the other forum sites from which you had been banned. That should have been a clue. Your fatally flawed agenda is entirely unwelcome here. Frankly, it was a matter of courtesy to permit your entry to this forum - a nod to your military service, albeit from 1954-56. You have unfortunately shown me the error of my generosity in all 10 of your posts. The fact that you must cite references that date back into the 1800's to back your theory tells me that you need to spend some time studying and training modern pistol doctrine from the latter part of the LAST century before we can even have intelligent discourse with you. Your obvious and apparent lack of relevant, modern firearms training shows through in every one of your posts.

Since you are unwilling to listen to reason or modern experience, provide nothing but heartache and useless controversy for our members, and make no attempts to contribute something useful to this forum, you are no longer welcome. Your forum priveleges are now revoked. Don't bother emailing us, we have nothing to say and have wasted enough time with you."

Here is a link to another thread where several people try to set the poster straight:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=53997&page=6 (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=53997&page=6)

It was ultimately locked when former Police Officer Ben Lenet, a man who has used deadly force in the course of his duties. wrote regarding the poster: "This is a useless discussion and has shown that some people truly do not have a real concept of shooting for blood."

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: whitewolf on November 10, 2010, 06:49:11 AM
thank you- i am so busy lately that i just rush through these posts-i will slow down- i will go to the range and try it to see wht this guy is talking about- did not know he was banned from forums- thanks again- WW
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on November 10, 2010, 12:20:42 PM
I reviewed the post, and I have to agree with that police sergeant.  This man has no concept of COMBAT shooting. 

Tendons, ligaments, muscles, blah blah blah.  What matters is what works for you, not what science and theory say SHOULD work.  The part about the index finger was slightly relevant, but when you're shooting at someone with the intent to stop them from doing unto you, pinpoint accuracy matters little in the face of the need to hit them RIGHT NOW!


Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Canuk on November 10, 2010, 12:47:13 PM
I reviewed the post, and I have to agree with that police sergeant.  This man has no concept of COMBAT shooting. 

Tendons, ligaments, muscles, blah blah blah.  What matters is what works for you, not what science and theory say SHOULD work.  The part about the index finger was slightly relevant, but when you're shooting at someone with the intent to stop them from doing unto you, pinpoint accuracy matters little in the face of the need to hit them RIGHT NOW!


Kent
Agreed! keep shooting for center mass until the threat to you or others has been stopped.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: whitewolf on November 10, 2010, 02:10:35 PM
glad you guys responded-thanks- WW
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 09, 2010, 10:27:03 AM
As to what works in close quarters killing situations, why don't youse who think I'm nuts or worse, just trot on out your stats, studies, and the like that show that Sight Shooting is effective for self defense use in close quarters killing situations.

Where is your proof that supporting and/or teaching it, won't setup your charges to be killed in situations where there is the greatest likely hood of their being shot/maimed/killed, as they will be left with no practical and effective means of self defense if the plan on using Sight Shooting. 

Sadly, the use of Sight Shooting for self defense in close quarters killing situations, has been taught for 100 years, but it has yet to be proven to be applicable or effective in them.

As to me, your personal attacks just show your high level of insecurity about your beliefs and opinions, and your low level of discourse.

P&S has been around since at least 1835, check it out.

Walter J. Dorfner the long time lead instructor for the VSP experimented with it and he felt that it would be the next step in the evolution of survival shooting.

Jack Ruby used it to kill Oswald on TV and for the whole world to see.

The US military knew about it and mentioned it in lots of its manuals from 1912 up until the 1940's. Check it out.

Why not just bring on your facts in support of what you say.

I have a page on my site just awaiting proof that Sight Shooting is effective in CQ self defense. It's been empty for a few years now.

Here's a link to it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1april1.htm

As to the wizards of 10-8, the same applies to them. I'm sure they mean well with their nationally prominent and expert but personal opinions.

But when it comes to killing, I'd rather trust on what studies and stats, science, and videos say about what the truth is.

And then, what about the poor souls, who are not blessed with having access to the wisdom and hands on healing powers of the wizards? Guesss it's just TS for them.

..........

Here's a link to a page about a survivor of 14 gunfights: http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm

And here's a link to a new page about an Officer who was in a gunfight and sent me an unsolicited e-mail: http://www.pointshooting.com/1akevin.htm It includes a link to a video of his gunfight.

And here's a link to my latest article on this subject. Its called let's take the gloves off: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agloves.htm

..........

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on December 09, 2010, 10:59:29 AM
I don't think much anyone argues about "point shooting" at all.

Its the middle finger trigger pull that no one likes.

Hock

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 09, 2010, 08:49:02 PM
Thanks Hock,

Keep in mind that the method which was known of since 1835, and which also was known to the US military circa 1912 -1940 or so, was not critisized for which finger was used on the trigger. Some very early shooting pubs say that some rifle shooters used the middle finger on the trigger as "they" obviously thought it the better.

And Appelegate says that in combat you will have a crush grip on your gun.

So, IMHO, forget any thinking that you will use a grip in CQB where your index finger will be held aloof from the gun so the trigger can be squeezed back until the shot breaks. Nice thought but not in sink with reality.

I'm not saying that that won't work in some situations, as one if not the top range-game-gun-shooter is said to say that he shoots with his thumbs not in contact with the gun.

My interest is what will work in CQB situations, not range situations. Also, the middle finger is stronger for use with double action guns.

Walter Dorfner found that it was easier for some folks to pull a double action trigger with the middle finger, than with the index finger. http://www.pointshooting.com/pands.htm

Use of the middle finger allows the gun bore to be lower down in the hand which improves recoil control, and it pulls back strighter in the hand than does the index finger, and it receives nerve inputs from both sides which is not the case with the index finger.

Sounds like a winner to me.

And I'm not about to call my WWII Sgt a liar or a crank, who told me to use my index finger to aim my SMG and my middle finger to pull the trigger, when shooting from the hip. it worked then and still does, even with puny little pistols.  ;D

(I am sure he is long dead by now since he must have been 29 or 30 then, RIP.)

Thanks again for your input and the best to you and yours, and all the folks here.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 09, 2010, 09:56:19 PM
Sounds like a bunch of blah blah blah yackety shmackety.

Nowadays, in the modern military, which has seen plenty of modern combat on modern weapons, in the modern battlefield. 

That's really great about whatever Applegate says.  He didn't write a gospel.  I never had a crush grip on my rifle.  It would make it really hard to wield effectively.  Thumbs, fingers, blah blah blah.  This is the sort of stuff that gets debated by people who haven't really been in a firefight.  The best grip is however you happen to have the rifle or pistol at the time the shooting starts. 

As children, before we handle a gun, we instinctively pull the trigger with our index finger.  The only place I've seen the middle finger on the trigger was in paintball.  Even there I question the effectiveness, but since paintballers are not trying for accuracy, it works.

I don't know where you came from, and I don't much care.  You have basically come in here promoting a bunch of crap and sourcing OLD material.  Believe me when I say there are people in the military that look at some of that old stuff regularly, to try and find an edge on the battlefield, usually professional career NCOs.  If I tried shooting anything with my middle finger I would be thrown off the range.  So good for Jack Ruby.  Great, grand wonderful.  Take your theory back to the drawing board, and do us all a favor and come back with something relevant.

Mind, I don't have a problem with debate, however, more than a couple people have already stated that squeezing the trigger with the middle finger is crap, but you keep coming back to it. 

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 10, 2010, 01:41:20 AM
With P&S the index finger, sights, and barrel are in alignment.

And the sights must be in alignment and placed correctly on a target to get a hit.

Here is what the US Army says about our ability to point at things. It is found in the US Army's Field Manual 3-23.35: Combat Training With Pistols M9 AND M11 (June,2003).

"Everyone has the ability to point at an object.

"When a soldier points, he instinctively points at the feature on the object on which his eyes are focused. An impulse from the brain causes the arm and hand to stop when the finger reaches the proper position.

"When the eyes are shifted to a new object or feature, the finger, hand, and arm also shift to this point.

"It is this inherent trait that can be used by a soldier to rapidly and accurately engage targets."

When shooting, the pointing and shooting are done as one action. That is, as soon as your senses say that you are where you are pointing, pull the trigger with you middle finger.

Point-n-pull point-n-pull point-n-pull.

How are you at shooting aerials with whatever method you use for shooting???


I'm pretty good and it doesn't take that much practice.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1aerials.htm

As I have said before, where is the proof that the method you use works and is effective in close quarters self defense situations.

Got some pics and videos of what you say works, working???
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: arnold on December 10, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
My old man was in law enforcement for more than 40 years. As he got into his 50's, he couldn't see the sight on his colt 38 anyway. But he could pull his revolver and put 6 shots into the target in less than 3 seconds. Anddo this with a jascket and tie on dressed in his wingtips!
Anyway, it smells like smebody pulled somebody's finger... :P
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 10, 2010, 11:49:06 AM
My "proof" as you say, is three combat tours.  How many times have you pulled the trigger with your middle finger in combat?

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 10, 2010, 08:49:44 PM
None, but rest assured I would. It works for me.

(http://www.pointshooting.com/target3.jpg)

Here's some pics from the olden days:

(http://www.pointshooting.com/helio1.jpg)

Smoked then 2.

(http://www.pointshooting.com/grease1.jpg)(http://www.pointshooting.com/grease2.jpg)

There also is an article on my site re rifle QuicK Kill and of my experience with it. The Army used to teach it, so why wouldn't I use it when it works and is very effective. Using the middle finger with it is just fine. When you are busy getting on the target, you don't think of what finger is on the trigger, you just pull it.

What I am talking about in this thread is shooting at less than 21 feet where most all self defense gunfights occur and where most all cops and civilians are shot/maimed/murdered

Beyond 25 feet or even 15 feet, the chance of you being hit by a pistol is slim to very slim. It has to do with the sight radius. Check out my article on that.

I don't think thousands and thousands of NYPD Officers lied when they participated in the SOP 9 study, and said that they did not use sight shooting, and that most all fired with the strong hand, and that reloads were not needed.

If you are talking rifle fights and pro active-attack killing that may be another matter. Why not start a thread on it?
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 10, 2010, 10:43:22 PM
Gods save the rest of the world from keyboard warriors.


Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 11, 2010, 04:56:34 PM
I rely on what I was told to do, what science says will happen, what the stats and studies and thousands of cops have said happens, what the literature says, what a lead firearms instructor for the VSP said, what survivors say, what the videos show, and the results of my investigation and experimentation.

If a method gets you fast and accurate target engagement, and is also not a bar to using sights if they can be used, why wouldn't one want to use it?

The facts of the matter are that Sight Shooting is a proven failure in CQ situations. If you have facts, pics, videos showing otherwise, present some.

My interest is in close quarters shootings where most all police and civilians are shot/maimed/murdered.

What shooting method did you use, what weapons were employed, under what conditons, and in particular what distances???

In what way were your gunfight experiences similar to or different than those the findings of the NYPD SOP 9 study, or of the Chicago Officer who has been in 14 gunfights?

That would add to the thread for the benfit of readers.  

For the SOP 9 http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

For the 14 gunfights http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 11, 2010, 11:09:46 PM
Look dude, let me put it in English this time...

I'm not arguing about point shooting.  I'm arguing about pulling the trigger with your middle finger.  Make sure you put that in your will, that you want it on your epitaph, okay?  That way if I see your headstone I'll know it was you.  WTF, dude.

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 12, 2010, 05:43:23 PM
I reviewed the post, and I have to agree with that police sergeant.  This man has no concept of COMBAT shooting. 

Tendons, ligaments, muscles, blah blah blah.  What matters is what works for you, not what science and theory say SHOULD work.  The part about the index finger was slightly relevant, but when you're shooting at someone with the intent to stop them from doing unto you, pinpoint accuracy matters little in the face of the need to hit them RIGHT NOW!


Kent

Well Kent, in reviewing this thread to see if I had mentioned shooting aerials using P&S, I came accross your posting.

As to shooting aerials, you have to be very quick and accurate. And P&S fits the bill. Below is a link to a page describing how I have done that, and a link to a video of it being done.

The US Army says pointing works and is instinctive, and that it is quick and accurate. I agree with that, and proved it to and for myself. It's faster than using any other Point shooting method, and faster than using the sights, and it's accurate.

No thinking is required, just point-n-pull.

As to one using the sights for shooting aerials, that's a joke IMHO.

So, if one wants to be able to hit a target RIGHT NOW, why not give P&S a try.

Descriptive info: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aerials.htm

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRcK4WJMl5c

Why not try your method shooting at aerials, and with an airsoft pistol. Let us know how it worked out.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on December 12, 2010, 06:46:10 PM
Of course, point and shoot

IS NOT THE QUESTION, NOT THE SUBJECT

it is rather about

USING THE MIDDLE FINGER TO PULL THE TRIGGER


Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 12, 2010, 09:18:13 PM
What are you talking about with aerials?  Who shoots at aerial targets in combat?  You are either a nutcase, or a very young child.  Go away.

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 13, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
I'll mention this one more time, and then go away at least for awhile.

Kent says: you want to be fast and hit the target right now.

Now, using your index finger to point/aim the gun allows you to fast and accurately engage a target per the US Army. It's fast, instinctive, automatic and it works.

So, if it works with the first shot (that is provides accurate shooting), why not do that for each and every shot.

And that's no problem if the middle finger is used on the trigger. Then the index finger stays in position for fast/accurate/instinctive aiming.

To shoot aerials you have to be both very fast and accurate.

...............

Specifically, what Point Shooting method do you use, and why and how?

And is it fast and accurate enough to be used to shoot aerials. If not, the aerial shooter will probably (most likely), shoot you before you shoot him/her.

Merry Christmas.

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 13, 2010, 12:32:14 PM
If you cannot shoot fast and accurately in CQB situations using your index finger, I recommend you put the gun down, or find some competent instruction. 

In CQB shooting, when I've been training for about a week or so, I rarely index the sights.  I know instinctively where my barrel is, where the shot hits, and where to move my point of aim too.  One of the things I like, which is boring when done for too long, is to shoot at a circle, a square, and a triangle.  The shapes are inconsequential, it could be an octagon, a trapezoid, and a pentacle for all I care.  But shooting at one, that's painted black, helps me to see the impact of the round on white paper.  This is typically done at distances of less than ten meters, sometimes less than five.  When I see where the shots impact, instantly, I can correct my point of aim, and after a while, it becomes instinctive where to point the barrel and when to squeeze the trigger.  None of this middle finger crap.  And again, I've done this in combat, in training, with live rounds and blanks.  We do it because....it works.  Again, if one of my troops came in and tried to pull the trigger with his middle finger, I'd throw him off the range for a little while.  If we were just farting around somewhere, I might let someone try it.

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Professor on December 13, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
(http://www.pointshooting.com/target3.jpg)


This mean that my wife (who was the hostage) died from my lack of proper aiming.

Sorry, don't cut it for me.



THE ABOVE IS ABOUT SHOOTING!
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: arnold on December 14, 2010, 08:22:41 AM
Looks like he should have only taken 4 shots.....
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Professor on December 14, 2010, 09:36:43 AM
Practice make permanent.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Keith Miller on December 14, 2010, 12:37:25 PM
(http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/this-thread-sucks/4/Needs-More-CounterStrike.gif) (http://"http://www.funnyforumpics.com")

Or Call of Duty. Notice the finger?
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 16, 2010, 03:49:30 PM
If you cannot shoot fast and accurately in CQB situations using your index finger, I recommend you put the gun down, or find some competent instruction. 

In CQB shooting, when I've been training for about a week or so, I rarely index the sights.  I know instinctively where my barrel is, where the shot hits, and where to move my point of aim too.  One of the things I like, which is boring when done for too long, is to shoot at a circle, a square, and a triangle.  The shapes are inconsequential, it could be an octagon, a trapezoid, and a pentacle for all I care.  But shooting at one, that's painted black, helps me to see the impact of the round on white paper.  This is typically done at distances of less than ten meters, sometimes less than five.  When I see where the shots impact, instantly, I can correct my point of aim, and after a while, it becomes instinctive where to point the barrel and when to squeeze the trigger.  None of this middle finger crap.  And again, I've done this in combat, in training, with live rounds and blanks.  We do it because....it works.  Again, if one of my troops came in and tried to pull the trigger with his middle finger, I'd throw him off the range for a little while.  If we were just farting around somewhere, I might let someone try it.

Kent

Sounds like you are using traditional marksmanship practices, which of course includes sight shooting which fails in CQB situations.

How much of your practice is at 15 feet or so where there is the greatest chance of being shot?

Most likely a shooting situation will be dynamic with either or both parties moving. And you most likely won't be able to see hits and make adjustments.

And squeezing the trigger according to the literature won't happen at CQ distances, as you will have a crush grip on the gun.

Were you attacking or acting in self defense? And what were the distances involved?

What branch of service are you in? And do all carry a pistol for combat use?

And have you tried your method shooting at aerials yet?

I wasn't in the infantry, but we had carbines, MSG's, M1's, and ring mounted fifty caliber machine guns. Officers and MP's carried pistols.

Lacking proof that Sight Shooting is effective in CQB situations, and knowing that it fails in CQB situations for a variety of physiological and environmental reason, and knowing that the hit rate in CQB situations is less than 20%, IMO those who use it, teach it, or encourage its use for CQ situations must have a death wish or way overblown feelings of altruism for crooks trying to kill them, or both.

But then, what could I know?

Based on this thread and other discussions, I am going to add a new page on my site called: Do you have a death wish?

..........

As to the comment about the hostage target. Did not know that it was supposed to represent a hostage situation. Never had seen one, until that day when I bought and used it for my first 5 shots of the day. Just thought it looked cool.

I just point-n-pull with my middle finger as fast as I can point-n-pull.

If I had known it was it was a hostage situation and I had a pistol, i'd shoot for the legs - or tell the hostage to go limp and fall down - or if I had the guts like the Chinese policewoman, i'd run up and shoot the SOB.

(http://www.pointshooting.com/china3.jpg)
(http://www.pointshooting.com/china4.jpg)

Happy new year!!

(http://www.pointshooting.com/laugh.gif)(http://www.pointshooting.com/laugh.gif)(http://www.pointshooting.com/laugh.gif)(http://www.pointshooting.com/laugh.gif)(http://www.pointshooting.com/laugh.gif)
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on December 16, 2010, 05:37:55 PM
"I don't think thousands and thousands of NYPD Officers lied when they participated in the SOP 9 study, and said that they did not use sight shooting, and that most all fired with the strong hand, and that reloads were not needed."


NO ONE disagrees about "point shooting." No sense arguing about it, debating it, because you are debating no one.

Hock
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Professor on December 16, 2010, 09:16:53 PM


..........

As to the comment about the hostage target. Did not know that it was supposed to represent a hostage situation. Never had seen one, until that day when I bought and used it for my first 5 shots of the day. Just thought it looked cool.

I just point-n-pull with my middle finger as fast as I can point-n-pull.

If I had known it was it was a hostage situation and I had a pistol, i'd shoot for the legs - or tell the hostage to go limp and fall down - or if I had the guts like the Chinese policewoman, i'd run up and shoot the SOB.



Yep, looked cool. 

Sorry, this post especially tied to the first post lost you all creditability with me.     Your idea of what to do in this situation is scary.

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Professor on December 16, 2010, 09:26:57 PM
I'll go shoot aerials with you...  I'll aim, you point-n-shoot.   I'll win more dollars.

(Million shotgunner can't be wrong)   


Aim and shoot is ALWAYS more accurate that point shooting.

However, certain situations DEMAND point shooting.  But, it is not when accuracy counts.

There is a REASON that those funky manufacturers put sight on pistols and rifles....

Can you hit what you need to hit?

Can you hit it consistently,

How accurate do you need to be?

Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight.


There's a whole lot of other stuff in this thread, but this covers most of it.




Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on December 17, 2010, 09:46:14 AM
You're really going to tell me what fails in CQB situations?  I think it's obvious which of us has more experience in real life CQB here...why don't you go find somewhere else to be an armchair commando?

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on December 17, 2010, 10:29:05 AM
And as Massod Ayoob likes to remind us (for decades now) when you "point shoot" you are still aiming.

Hock
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: GTC-554 on December 30, 2010, 09:57:27 PM
Ayoob has also said that people he has interviewed, who have been in shootings, most of the time the point shooters missed their attackers and the sighted shooters hit their attackers.  I have also trained with Jim Cirillo, and Jim would teach how to use the top of the gun to get some kind of index if your visionwas impaired.  Jim was also a sight shooter, as are Ken Hackathorn and Chuck Taylor, both combat veterans.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: 5shot on December 30, 2010, 10:07:15 PM
Nice responses and a good New Year to all.

Here's a link to an article: Let's take the gloves off: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agloves.htm

And here's one to an article: Do you have a death wish? http://www.pointshooting.com/1adeath.htm

And here's one to a vid on survival point shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Black Knife on January 05, 2011, 01:31:07 AM
First of all point shooting or instinctive does work. It has been proven that when a person is faced with a life threatening situation such as someone shooting at you the body will go into survival mode. You will not close one eye and aim. We all have seen police videos of shoot outs and the officer misses all his shots. Why....because they were taught on a gun range to hit paper targets using their sights. Well targets don't shoot back so when they face a suspect that is armed with a gun and is pointing it them they miss suspect because they get tunnel vision.

Now as far as using the middle finger to shoot is nonsense......you have no control with the weapon. Point shooting is done in a low isosceles stance with both arms locked out in front of you and shoot at the target with both eyes open. The range is 0 to 20 feet...anything farther you use sights....

In this video I am shooting at the steel target with both eyes open..I can shoot this way about 40 feet from the target. However most shoot outs occur at close ranges so I usually practice at 10 feet.  Of course this is just my opinion and I am sure some will disagree.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGob6IOI-PU
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on January 05, 2011, 10:53:53 AM
I CANNOT find my sights and target with both eyes open. I see two guns and a blurry target. It is something to do with my eyes and vision and age. But in the pinch, and I have been in pinches, I think both my eyes were open. I cannot 100% swear to that, but I think both my eyes were open. I have never shot and hit anyone but I have tried and missed people, but I really don't think I missed because both my eyes were open or one eye closed. These were on the move and very situational and very circumstantial.

I for one, am not a candidate to leave both my eyes open during a "Hail Mary" pistol shot. Too blurry. I am not alone on that.
 
More on this subject here-
http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/binocular-monocular/index.htm
This article made quite a pass though all the police web pages.

Hock
I really need to get the old Cirillo training film from Paladin because I read his second book and enjoyed it. I haven't yet located his definitive advice on shooting under stress and would like to have it. This guy has been in some shoot-outs through time. These other "combat vets" I don't know what that means exactly.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on January 05, 2011, 03:25:07 PM
My experience shooting close quarters, at sniper school, and on various three-hundred meter popup ranges is that I need to close one eye in order to accurately shoot at a target past fifty meters.  Close than fifty meters and I don't even have to bring my rifle up to the accepted shooting position, at the shoulder, in order to accurately hit.  I can shot from the hit or underarm position with a rifle, automatic rifle, or machine gun and hit targets that are inside of fifty meters.  A high percentage?  No.  But at that range I have to get rounds headed in his direction before he gets rounds headed in my direction.  Will this work for everyone?  I can't say, and I wouldn't say.  I am only sure of what works for me.  Outside of fifty meters I need to bring the rifle up to my shoulder and access the sights.  I might even have to take a knee to do it, I'm not sure.  I don't recall if I've ever tried to hit targets past fifty meters while standing.  If they were shooting at me, I'd probably do some snap-shots on the run, rather than stop to take up a good position and return fire.  I learned that in my time at Bragg...when the bad guys have a bead drawn on you, seek cover first, then return fire.  You may go to return fire and have a malfunction of some sort, which you probably won't live to clear if you don't seek cover first. 

But I digress.  With pistols, it's a whole different story.  Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim.  Misses count, but I'll never be able to miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Snap-shots might be okay initially, but aimed fire at that distance is a much better bet.  Inside of ten meters, with my personally owned pistol, I can be pretty sure of getting a hit, somewhere on the bad guy, without needing to use the sights.  Inside of five meters I feel confident I could do it with a pistol in each hand, if necessary. 

When shooting at any kind of appreciable range, though, I will absolutely close one eye in order to shut out the noise that having both eyes open causes.  It's a lot easier for me to focus with only one eye open, and I think that my scores at the ranges have been pretty consistent with this approach, which tells me it's the technique for me to use in combat as well.

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on January 05, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
"Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim."

What do you see when you do this? Do you see a "ghost gun?" beside the real gun?

Hock
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Kentbob on January 05, 2011, 05:09:26 PM
Umm...honestly, it's been so long since I shot my pistol I can't remember.  My brother keeps wanting me to go shooting with him...but I'm with you on this one; shooting paper targets holds no appeal.

Kent
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Professor on January 06, 2011, 03:36:18 PM
"Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim."

What do you see when you do this? Do you see a "ghost gun?" beside the real gun?

Hock

No, sort of, not really.   soft focus on the front sight will keep this from happening.

Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Black Knife on January 06, 2011, 04:43:44 PM
I don't use sights at all when doing point shooting.....I look at the target only. That is the way I was taught. The people that I train don't have a problem doing it either so I know it is not hard to learn.
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hock on January 06, 2011, 05:47:10 PM
If I have to do a little moving and shooting on some courses and the targets are close and body size, I kind of forget to look at my sights sometimes. Do just fine. I'll bet a lot of people do and may not notice it.

I was shooting about three weeks ago and we had some targets out at the 50 yard line and each shot I took was Hail Mary, Zen moment, breather (but I had to close one eye)

Hock
Title: Re: Survival Point Shooting
Post by: Hawkeye on January 23, 2011, 11:01:17 AM
Many years ago I started training myself to keep both eyes open when I shoot. My theory being (right or wrong) that it would give me a bit more peripheral vision and try to disipate some of the tunnel vision you can get in a deadly force encounter.

In my own personal AAR's of a situation I notice that I do still get some tunneling when I draw on someone but I "think" it's a little less than it was years ago. Both eyes open could be part of it but I suppose experience, also.

My PD issues us the Glock 22 .40 cal and prior to about 8 years ago, we carried the S&W 4506 which was a huge stainless steel .45 cal. Great gun but we were getting some smaller officers and they were having a hard time with the size of the 4506.
Plus, replacement parts were getting more expensive, didn't make that exact model anymore, harder to find training opportunities for armorers, etc.

I do personally find the Glock to be more "pointable".

I also carry an AR15 at work. I tend to switch between one eye or two eyes on that. Since we're not allowed telescopic sites (relfex is okay but it can't magnify) we only shoot out to 100 yards.

We shoot photo-type bad guy targets at full human size. I hit what I'm aiming at 100 yds whether I use one or two eyes, but I find it easier to concentrate using one eye at those ranges.  Gets considerably easier as the range decreases.

At some of the closer range stuff (inside 15-20 feet I guess) we'll shoulder the rifle but shoot without sites.

Hock, why originally started to respond to this post was what you wrote about seeing the "ghostgun". If I don't focus on something with both eyes open, I'll get that sometimes. I generally focus on the front-site or occasionally on the target; either way gets rid of the ghost for me.
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