Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Adventure on January 14, 2011, 03:26:36 PM

Title: To much Sparring?
Post by: Adventure on January 14, 2011, 03:26:36 PM
So is there such a thing as to much SPARRING?

Are there any bad habits we develop from Sparring to much....?

Hock ways mentions ground work de-evolving into wrestling when there is no coach to monitor the bout.

Any ideas?
Title: To much Sparring?
Post by: Hock on January 14, 2011, 03:32:22 PM
I think that most sparring should at least be kick boxing.
But that is built by -  

 - isolated boxing rounds (to build skill)
 - isolated kicking rounds (to build skill)
 - isolated kick boxing rounds
 - then adding surprise take downs.

Too much boxing makes you forget the legs. Too much kick sparring makes you forget the boxing (don't laugh, look at older Thai systems). Too much kick boxing makes you forget the ground. Too much ground makes you forget about striking and kicking. Too much of all of that makes you forget about guns, knives and impact weapon.

Really, today's version of UFC style MMA is about as good as it can get for the combat sports angle and taking it to the edge of reality. As always - good instructors must oversee all of it, that means instructors not brainwashed into thinking that any one aspect is superior to the other.

Hock
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Hock on January 15, 2011, 08:15:05 AM
I always use the Michael Jordan of the Bulls example.

     - Fabulous athlete
     - Fantastic basketball player
     - sucky baseball player

At what point did he do too much of one thing?

This concepts exists down to the simplest level. If you only practice catching ground balls to the right, your skills to the left suffer.

Hock
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: whitewolf on January 15, 2011, 09:28:01 AM
I agree with Hocks thoughts- if one is going to box only- spar with a boxer.
If you are going to go MMA-learn and spar in different areas-or get hurt or tap out.
As to sparing- i personnally do not think their is too much-continuus practise against a live opponent/trainer can only make one better- you dont have to get beat up but do make continous contact- WW
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Hock on January 15, 2011, 11:16:48 AM
And of course that is why I always suggest.

Box... but don't become the boxer.
Wrestle... but don't become the wrestler.
MMA...but don't become the MAA-er.

Its a Zen thing but it is true!

Hock
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: whitewolf on January 15, 2011, 02:51:18 PM
Hock- thank you- that says it all-WW
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: jpmbujutsu on January 25, 2011, 06:00:45 AM
Not sure what the answer is?

Bruce Lee use to say when asked about over training.
"I would rather be overtrained then undertrained."

To date this year (2011) I've sparred 170 rounds.

No typo that is

170 Rounds

Boxing
Kickboxing
MMA
Submission

Evenly distributed between all of them to work different aspects of  fighting.
Rounds times between 2-5 min in duration.

I will be adding stick and knife as well.

Last Monday I did 25 straight rounds.
2 min. with :30 second rest
Against 5 different opponents

So am I in danger of becoming a worse fighter?

I think you may be guilty of not doing a enough sparring.

But in the end you have to make that decision for yourself.

There is no cookie cutter answer.

"Train Like a Madman!"

Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: wisdom on January 25, 2011, 07:53:27 AM
The other factors are age, infirmities and possibly children or work...I have bad knees just terrible knees for 41....as much as I would like to do more...just can't..and still be able to work forty hours and play/be there for my kids...lots of  us with these limitations..and sparring that much would  hurt/hinder us making it not a life enriching hobby or self defense skills we are practicing but self offense doing our selves harm..but man do some of us envy those rounds others get to put in.... :'(
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Keith Miller on January 25, 2011, 01:48:32 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as "too much" of somebody trying to hit you in the face, and you trying to stop it from happening.
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: wisdom on January 25, 2011, 07:24:27 PM
I agree Keith but what you described can be done in a drill...it might sneak up and get close to sparring(and I do spar..as much as I am able) but it might not bleed over into "sparring"...

Like I said I cry about my limitations and look at the younger healthier guys with envy...I wish I could put on those rounds...but just this week went to the Doc after a eight hour shift and she touched my knees....so much pain that my girl who went with me said "you tapped out and floated off the table"  and that was from a doc's gentle touch....the idea of some sparring now(I think or "rolling" and my knees hide in shame)makes me cringe and I didn't start off an un-tough guy....I fought some full contact wars in my Black Belt test under Hock and before that sparred my ass off in a JKD school...and man I wish I still could...but I can't be the only guy on here with some health problems who has to drill/spar around them.  On the flip side I have of a couple of twenty years old class and even the basic drills they do almost always turn into sparring..and I let them beat the shit out of each other while they are young enough to heal.
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: JimH on January 25, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Sparring in which we enter into a conflict and try to end it quickly  ?
Then I say Yes

Sparring over several rounds in which we use that as our aerobics,to exchange in a half hearted attempt to meet requirements of a certain number of rounds ,or so many kicks or punches ?
Then I say NO
Then too much sparring is just a waste of time.
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Keith Miller on January 25, 2011, 10:06:40 PM
Sparring in which we enter into a conflict and try to end it quickly  ?
Then I say Yes

Sparring over several rounds in which we use that as our aerobics,to exchange in a half hearted attempt to meet requirements of a certain number of rounds ,or so many kicks or punches ?
Then I say NO
Then too much sparring is just a waste of time.
JimH,

Do you spar?
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: JimH on January 25, 2011, 11:30:30 PM
I have sparred for sport.
I have kicked ,punched,boxed and rolled,all for sport.
I have sparred rounds for exchange under the rules of sport.
I have sparred where one had to have a minimum number of kicks per round,which ended up being just throw a leg up and out to get it to count to not have a point deducted.

After too many years of doing that now I no longer spend time sparring for so many minutes per round with so much time to rest,to exchange in a prescribed skill set.

I roll with sport rollers do a little of what they do and then do what I do.
Not interested in trying to submit them but to see if I could cause injury  and or get up and away.
I box with boxers,more now to show them what I do rather than do what they do
and I spar with Karate types to use what they do to close the distance and then do what I do.

So I guess I still spar ,just not in a traditional or classical sense of hit,move in,move out,hit and get hit and do it repeatedly for time or until one of us goes downin several minutes,over several seconds.
I am not interested in training for the sake of training to develop habits of sport and exchange.
I train more to develop the  use of my close in skills in Hapkido,judo,jujitsu against various other skilled players.

Over 40 years of doing this stuff,and I am no longer interested in sport or delayed exchanges for the sake of exchanging.
I want to train to do the job  and end a conflict quickly,period.
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Joe Hubbard on January 26, 2011, 03:03:58 AM
Long range sparring?  The truth is everybody's reality is something different.  When Hock was in London in December he was giving a lecture about the Stop 1.  One of the things that really hit home was when he said, "Everybody has a different script and have to function in their lives accordingly.  What works for a citizen doesn't necessarily work for a cop."  So before we get into the debate of "How much sparring?", first you have to define what your reality actually is and then train in proportion to that.

Personally I only spar 5% of my overall training.  If I was a professional fighter or teaching a boxing or kickboxing class or an MMA coach perhaps I'd do more.  The trouble with the subject of sparring in a self defence/combatives/street survival context is that the lines are extremely blurred from instructor to instructor; that also goes with scenario replications.  Hock has always said, "I will never tell you how to fight, I will only teach you want you need to know."  You see sparring and force-on-force drills are great if you know how to fight, but do not serve as a platform to teach you to fight.  Remember my maxim:

"You cannot learn to swim on dry land, but you can't learn to swim in a Tsunami either."

Joe
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Joe Hubbard on January 26, 2011, 03:08:40 AM
Bruce Lee use to say when asked about over training.
"I would rather be overtrained then undertrained."

Was this an answer to the question of how much sparring?  Training and sparring are two different things.

Joe
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Mick Coup on January 26, 2011, 03:29:44 AM
The whole 'sparring' issue is something that I've tried to give a lot of thought to over the years.

In the classic/usual sense, I stopped sparring a long time ago - both from a personal and 'professional' perspective - and found that 'fighting' became more accomplished as a direct result.

This is not to say that I do not rate direct force-on-force training - far from it.  I simply believe that the format of sparring-type engagements is actually counter-productive to what is usually the intended aim and objectives of such training, and that there are far more productive and relevant formats possible, with a little thought and effort.

The following clip has a collection of examples of what I term 'live drills' taken from various courses.  The terminology I use is simple enough, and leads on from basic, enhanced, active and stress drills as a logical progression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq-dX8HdrGA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Please read the descriptive 'blurb' attached to the clip for details as to some 'why/what' points...

Mick
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Professor on January 26, 2011, 08:50:03 AM
I enjoy sparring and it adds a tremendous amount to my personal training.

If you know that the result of your poor training on Monday is a bloody nose on Wednesday, you will train harder.

Do you learn from Sparring?  yes.

Do you get dumber from Sparring?  no.

Do you learn bad habits?  sometimes.

It depends on your attitude and your background.
Title: Re: To much Sparring?
Post by: Hock on January 27, 2011, 01:45:59 PM
I haven't sparred in about two years.

Some of you will remember that was when I had a rib broken from sparring. MMA gloves. Also, that was around the time when I tore two right leg muscles while trying to move a guy my size when I had him in the guard. (I know this now, I just thought it was a lower back injury.)

Before little idiots and daushbags on Martial Planet or Bullshido run to the presses and proclaim "Hock never spars," I will remind them that I started sparring/kickboxing in 1973.

I too, just like Mick Coup said, always ponder the subject. How much? Doing exactly what?  Since I started the SFC in 1995, in our level 10 "Black Belt" test we require kickboxing with take downs as part of the test. Just cause. Just cause you half to. This means that throughout the years and the nine levels all people need to be working on some kickboxing/sparring.

Invariably this is where our people get hurt because it gets crazy during the test And it is the last part of the test. People are tired and injuries occur. (Worst injury? Randy Nickels, a Chicago cop broke his knee years back during one.) I will tell you I grimace during this process because it gets real wild west.

But I think ya' gotta do it. It's a rite of passage. But it eventually needs to include take downs and ground finishes. We accept any ground finishes but we like ground n' pound.
(and suddenly we have the look of the UFC in many ways)

But you will NEVER replicate reality unless you are on the "Hollow Deck" of the Enterprise. (spelled Halodeck)

I don't know that I will spar again? Maybe in very short bursts. I know I cannot kick with right leg. And now I even feel the impact into my left leg. Will I heal up great and feel horsey enough?

If you really want to see some non-stop action? See clips from these tests.
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product323.html


Hock

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