Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Jumonkan on January 19, 2012, 01:01:34 PM

Title: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 19, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
Hello all,

 I found this BB though a topic "Aikido verses Aikijujutsu." I read the article, thread and found it interesting an wanted to weigh in on the topic but then I noticed it was about a year or two old. I thought it would still be nice to offer my point of view as a student of Aikijujutsu and Aikido for about 15 years.

Aikido verses Aikijujutsu is kind of misleading. Aikido technique is in fact Aikijujutsu technique. O-Sensei in his later years, as it has been stated, began to change how he taught not actually what he taught. Aikikai Aikido is actually still Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques.

The most pronounced difference really in Aikido and Aikijujutsu(in terms of Daito Ryu) is the sword work. In Daito Ryu Aizu Ono-Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu Sokakuden is the sword system. In Aikido the system is based on Yagyu Shingan-ryu, O-sensei never really learned the sword, Bo, and Jo work of Daito Ryu.

The reason I say Aikido techniques are Aikijujutsu techniques is this; Daito Ryu has three levels. Jujutsu(how every you chose to spell it), Aikijujutsu and Aiki-no-jutsu, sometimes spelled Aikijutsu or just Aiki technique or blending. The Daito Ryu Jujutsu is the 118 Hiden Mokuroku waza; Ikkajo (breaking the balance to the rear and one side or the other), Nikkajo (breaking the balance across the line of attack), Sankajo (making a space and droping the oppoent in it), Yonkajo/Shikajo (can't remember the purpose of Yonkajo/Shikajo). Gokkajo begins and actually contains the Aikijujutsu techniques. Then you begin the Aiki-no-jutsu waza then Hiden-ogi, Goshin yo-no-te, Kaishaku Soden, and finally Menkyo Kaiden. O-sensei's final version we know as Aikido is made up of that small section of techniques covered in the Hiden-Ogi and the Aiki-no-jutsu. To put it simply the higher levels of the systems techniques.

So Aikido techniques are Daito ryu techniques but there missing a big part. The Daito Ryu Jujutsu Hiden Mokuroku section lays a foundation to build on. It not only gives a good back up if the Aikijujutsu or Aiki-no-jutsu techniques fail, it actually teaches you how you must move in order to make the techniques work. As we all know if your body mechanics are wrong nothing you attempt will work. Another reason that I found that Aikido techniques seem ineffective at times is the Yagyu-shingan ryu sword system. While it is a kenjutsu system and can impart some amount of useful knowledge in regards to the techniques, does not reinforce the body movements needed. Ono-ha is very closely related to Daito Ryu technique so much so that you find the same movements in the Kenjutsu kata that are in the waza, like some of Mr. Lue was showing in his Hiden Aikijutsu videos in the past. Just some food for thought, I thought I would post.

Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Professor on January 19, 2012, 03:24:27 PM
done both, have a blackbelt in one and a brown with two stripes in the other.

Akijujitsu rules.
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: whitewolf on January 19, 2012, 06:47:47 PM
James thanks for your insite to this -as for who rules its the person not the style -JMHO WW
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 20, 2012, 06:15:36 AM
I agree. My post wasn't about who rules though.  :) I just wanted to put my two cents in as when I began studying Aikijujutsu all those years ago I had the idea Aikido and Aikijujutsu were different as well but after studying and understanding Daito Ryu more technically now I have come to realize once you get toward the upper levels of Daito ryu there really the same as far as technique.
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Professor on January 20, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
I agree. My post wasn't about who rules though.  :)

I understand, I ignored your point.   :D
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: arnold on January 21, 2012, 06:09:21 AM
A punch in the nose is a punch in the nose
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: JimH on January 21, 2012, 09:21:48 AM
Since Ueshiba taught Daito Ryu first and changed it at various times in his life to become the more compliant art known as Aikido today,it should stand to reason that the techniques are the same.

All one has to do  is take the modern ,compliant, version of Aikido,that many today say is useless in combat/self protection,and apply it against a resistant opponent and one would quickly realize the changes that would be needed to make it realistic,which would bring it back to being Daito Ryu.

Look at how Seagal added his differences and made TenShin Aikido street usable.

As the Saying goes.
All Aikido is Aikido,all Aikido is from Ueshiba.

When Kano saw Ueshibas school Kano said that what he saw with Ueshiba's later Aikido was what he,Kano,envisioned Judo to look like.

It all comes from the same/similar source Daito Ryu.

Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 23, 2012, 06:51:33 AM
I agree. My post wasn't about who rules though.  :)

I understand, I ignored your point.   :D

 ;D fair enough
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 23, 2012, 06:55:44 AM
It all comes from the same/similar source Daito Ryu. Ueshiba and Kano spent years training in and learning the hard, useable style of aikijujitsu

Hi Jim,

 Nice to meet you and everyone hear. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by those statements. Could you explain?   ??? 

Are you asserting Jigoro Kano learned Daito ryu or Aikijujutsu?

Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: JimH on January 23, 2012, 01:01:38 PM
Kano was familiar with Daito Ryu .
Judo was influenced by Daito Ryu in That Kano's Judo Had 150 techniques and Daito Ryu had 1000.
Judo as presented by Kano was unbeatable,to prove this Kano used a member of the Kodokan who was also a Master of Daito Ryu,Saigo Shida who changed his name to Saigo Shiro .
Saigo Shiro was the one chosen to represent the Kodokan in the Famous Judo vs Jujitsu challenge.
Where would Judo have been then and or be today without Saigo Shiro and Daito ryu ?

Kano also sent many of his top students to train under Ueshiba.

Kano and Ueshiba were also both students of Kito Ryu and used that art in forming their specific arts.

So if Kano used practioners of Daito Ryu to further his Judo and or sent students to Ueshiba to study,then we can make the not so big leap that Daito Ryu had an Influence on Judo on its Practioners and its Instructors .

As said one can clearly see that both arts,Judo and Daito Ryu,share the same techniques,the difference is in application.
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 24, 2012, 07:32:34 AM
As said one can clearly see that both arts,Judo and Daito Ryu,share the same techniques,the difference is in application.
I must admit this is the first time I have heard Ueshiba was a student of Kito ryu and used it to form Aikido, I have heard some strange stuff before, like he studied Kung fu in the Japan-Russo war etc. I have seen Kito ryu and I admit I see nothing of it in Aikido.

The fact that Kano was a Menkyo Kaiden in Kito ryu Jujutsu and most of the Kata are identical to Kito ryu and the ne-waza being almost completely identical to Fusen ryu closes the book for me. I respect you're critical thinking and hypothesis but I must respectfully disagree. I do not think Judo was influenced by Daito ryu.

Thank you for the discussion
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: JimH on January 25, 2012, 11:42:30 PM
If we say that Judo as taught by Kano was not influenced by Daito Ryu,but we say that Kano sent his top students to study Daito Ryu
Does that not mean that Judo as taught by Kano's top students ,sent to train in Daito Ryu,have not influenced the teaching of Judo ?

When Kano used Saigo Shiro,a Daito Ryu Master,to be the representative of Judo to the Public contests,was he not diplaying a Daito Ryu aspect of his Judo to the public ? (though not told to the public,but misinformation to the public)

We can not say that using Daito Ryu to represent an art ,and sending top students to  Daito Ryu has not had influence on the art of Judo.

I am sorry that you have not heard that Ueshiba studied Kito Ryu,But here are sites which say he did:


Rather than post each site, here is the page with the sites that say Ueshiba did in fact study Kito Ryu and name his teacher.

I respect your opinion,but it is just that ,an opinion,one with which I have a different opinion .

I appreciate the discussion.
Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: Jumonkan on January 26, 2012, 06:43:30 AM
Agreed  ;D

  Just a little note about that second article, it incorrectly names Ueshiba's Kito ryu teacher and years of study. So I find everything else it says questionable.

from article "at the age of fifteen, Ueshiba studied in Kito Ryu under Tokusaburo Tozawa"

From aikido journal  "O Sensei:  First I learned Tenjin shin'yo-ryu Jujutsu from Tozawa Tokusaburo Sensei, then Kito-ryu, Yagyu Ryu, Aioi-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, all of them Jujutsu forms. However, I thought there might be a true form of Budo elsewhere." So I do not believe he would use Kito ryu in his formation of Aikido if he believed true budo was else where.


Though I did find in that same reseaching in 1932 Kano after observing Ueshiba doing demonstrations asked him to come and teach at the Kodokan, Ueshiba refused so he sent several of his students to Ueshiba's Kobukan Dojo. So I concede the point that Daito ryu may have influenced Judo. In 1932 Ueshiba was still teaching Daito Ryu and beginning his steps toword Aikido. I cannot agree on the Aikido Kito ryu connection however, again having studied all three I see Kito ryu in a major way in Judo but absent in Aikido. The above statement also just makes it hard to believe he would include Kito ryu in his formation if he believed it wasn't true budo.

Title: Re: Aikijujutsu
Post by: vikinglongboat on January 30, 2012, 02:02:40 AM
A REALLY interesting discussion here! Thanks  :D