Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: whitewolf on February 25, 2012, 03:59:55 AM

Title: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on February 25, 2012, 03:59:55 AM
While teaching class yesterday I started  having each student who has a self defense technique to show one -each class we have one shown.
Yesterday a student who just came from calif and was a probation officer out there showed  his. I am not advacating this but just passing it along.
--When being bit on the arm or hand he said instead of pulling away and having flesh ripped away-you take bitten arm and slam it into his mouth
hard and fast as you can and grab rear of head and pull it in at same time
driving the arm forward-he said that works-i added palm strike to forehead also.Seems like bite to theigh area would work too- Anyone hear of that technique-as we teach to bite it is good to know a defense-WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Webby on February 25, 2012, 11:51:21 AM
If the guy is biting you on the forearm it works o.k. They used to teach this as part of the training programme with The National Control and Restraint General Services group in the UK. I've seen in taught by a senior instructor with The Northern Ireland Prison service as well. Personally I think eye gouging the guy is better, but it's a less politically correct way of doing it.   
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Benjamin Liu on February 25, 2012, 03:00:32 PM
Back when I worked in behavior homes I had some experience dealing with bites.

"They" (MA "experts" on forums) say that pressure points never work.  I've used them, well, by the PC term "release points," to take a biter off another resident.  Using the knuckles of the middle fingers into the point between the ear and jaw on either side will get the biter to stop biting another person.  That's just to stop the bite, he'll then likely attack you and you'll have to deal with that.

I've also dealt with multiple biting attempts against me, but was never bitten.  I did this the same way I'd deal with other attacks, getting out of the way and quickly getting out of a grab if grabbed.  And of course not trying to wrestle with someone who bites.

I've seen the results of human bites at that job, fresh ones, infected days-old bites, and people with missing parts from years-old bites.  Human bites are nasty and dangerous.  Too many people act like they are nothing, probably remembering being bitten by other kids when they were kids.

A common misconception about biting is that biters will do a "Dracula" bite, bringing their mouth to the victim.  The biters I've seen would grab a part of the victim and bring it to their mouth or grab the victim or his clothing and move their main body to their mouth, basically getting into a clinch to bite.  They do either method very fast.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on February 25, 2012, 09:09:10 PM
Some pretty interesting responses here-i do think 99% of the people bitten will try to pull away- practise is needed to respond effectively to this type attack-WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on February 26, 2012, 08:05:12 AM
Web- that makes good sense about the eye gauge too-WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: JimH on February 26, 2012, 12:11:55 PM
Yes ,if pushing into the bite,instead of pulling away ,is available then push in.
I was shown this years ago as a way to deal with guard dogs . When presented the arm most will take the arm and once the bite is on push into the dog and push the jaw/head upward then use the free arm as an upward forarm strike towards the jaw hinge to break the dogs jaw,or to the throat.
A downward forearm will drive the teeth into the arm.
(might not work on a Pitbull as they can lock their jaws,but I have used it on a German Shepherd Dog and it worked)

No reason this is not applicable to a human.
Most people will grab on to you with their hands to secure the bite,pushing the head up and back takes their balance and opens them for a vital strike, as with the dog.
People are not inclined ,or able ,to get the arm into the mouth all the way back to the Molars,they tend to bite with the frontal area teeth,so slamming the jaw hinge does not drive the teeth into the arm.

I would say that the eye strike MIGHT work,but it will most likely make the INTENT attacker/biter pull back and away ripping the flesh,instead of just opening their mouth and pulling away.(depends on the mindset of the person biting)
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Canuk on February 26, 2012, 06:01:19 PM
I was taught the same thing with both dogs and people, nit used it on a dog but have on a person and it worked for that particular incident
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Webby on February 27, 2012, 03:36:26 AM
One of the most common bites I saw as a nurse was the reverse bite injury. Someone punches the guy in the mouth and end's up with a seriously messed up hand. Tissue and bone damage from the other guys teeth. That's why I have always recommended a palm heel strike to the nose.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on February 27, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Thanks again- all make sense- showed this technique last class-surprised a lot of students who  had not thought of this defense.
This technique again shows that simple powerful and fast techniques can overcome a attacker-
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: VicMackey on March 08, 2012, 07:26:35 PM
Yeah, but what about a bite to the throat or pectorals from someone that has you in a bear hug or double underhook (seen biting techniques like that from "Savage Streetfighting" video from CFA)? I am armed with weapons to deal with that but I can't be armed all the time in some places.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Professor on March 08, 2012, 09:42:22 PM
Grab a left nut.   Biters reconsider at this point.   ;)
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 09, 2012, 06:50:24 AM
Hey Professor- how about the right one??? :D WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Professor on March 09, 2012, 07:25:36 AM
left is a higher pitch.    :o
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Barry Drennan on March 10, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
At Fairbairn Protocol H2H we teach biting, different biting techniques for different situations and outcomes. Jamming the thumb into the area located just in front of the mandible - cranium joint will prevent a person from biting but will not stop a person from biting once they have clamped down. The jaw muscle when stressed it to hard and resists the thumb pressure. To stop biting that is currently occurring we execute any technique that will cause greater pain (e.g. a shin scrape), or an involuntary reflex (a testicle grab or strike), or cause them to react to a "greater concern" ( an eye gouge). Pain, reflex and evolutionary psychological survival/self protection reactions are very dominating.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Barry Drennan on March 10, 2012, 12:57:53 PM
I should add that I have bitten a fair amount of people over the years. In one situation I have had the experience of a very large man 6"3 plus or minus try to choke me from the rear by placing his forearm across my throat. I was lucky enough to catch hold of it at my mouth and executed a bite using my front incisor teeth (cutters). He responded by trying to jam his arm deeper into my mouth. This not only did not stop me from biting but allowed me to bit better as for some unknown reason ( panic or tunnel-focus perhaps ) we both remained focused, him jamming, me biting, until he released, stepped back a few feet where upon I was able to turn to face him. From here the fight took different direction in both tactics and technique. It has been my experience that most people big or small, tough or not, react to a well chosen bite by doing some form of the "funky chicken" before they respond (if they respond).
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Barry Drennan on March 10, 2012, 01:05:28 PM
The details behind jamming the arm into the bit applies pressure the the mechanics of the jaw-cranium joint as well as to some degree the tendons and ligaments of that joint. Here the effect is only achievable if the nature/technique of the bit allows the arm to move deeper into the mouth hence allowing to apply the required pressure to is "joint area". When a bite is performed with the mouth partially closed the pressure is received by the biter's teeth drastically reducing the actual pressure applied to the joint area itself.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 10, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Good info Barry- thanks-so it behoves us to really jam that arm into the mouth hard and fast -WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Kentbob on March 10, 2012, 10:09:37 PM
Seems to me if you break their jaw they'd have a hard time biting as well.  Just saying, the mandible doesn't seem like such a hard place to hit with a hammerfist.

Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 11, 2012, 10:29:38 AM
yes thats what the officer said when we were tslking about itWW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Samspade on March 11, 2012, 12:07:35 PM
What an interesting conversation.  My wonderful wife manages two behavior houses for the mentally disabled.  The corporation where she works teaches The Mandt System of self-defense.  Which “in theory” should work.  However, when one has an out of control person who weighs in at 180lbs of, I can’t feel pain coming at you with a knife, screw driver or lamp.  I don’t think putting your hands in the praying position and saying their name is going to do much to protect yourself right at that moment.  The corporation teaches that the Mandt system will work on everyone, and for everyone. Sound familiar?  Mandt suggests rolling the arm into the bite or away from the bite.  Question, how do you roll your finger into or away from a biting person?  (your thoughts)

In this home there are two that like to bite.  They have a new man who is in his early to mid twenties strong, young and loves to bite.  He some times, if you are not watching will grab ones arm, leg, hand or sneak up behind you, and pull you to him latch on HARD to a forearm, hand, finger, thumb ect.  This person has injured a few unsuspecting workers in his life.  I believe he will injure more.  Of course a heel palm strike to the nose, is out of the question and is just going to get the employee fired, the same with a broken jaw.  I like the idea of if feeding the forearm to him only if you catch the bite in the very early stages of the bite, other wise you are just feeding him more flesh.  Behind the ear might work on some people some of the time, but after trying pressure point tactics, on so drunks I know better than to rely on them.  Now a strike to a pressure point is a different animal altogether.  (any help? any suggestions?)
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 11, 2012, 01:35:53 PM
Sam- good thoughts u brought up-sense i  have not been bite sense i was a little kid I cannot give a positive answer excet to say that when the bite is started one has to immediately respond-dont just leave the
appendage there to be chewed on-as far as letting them bite and not hitting-thats a judgement call on the nurse-I personally going to jam my arm as hard as i  can plus palm strike the forhead repeatedly till free-
(Then go put in for enemployment benifits- ;D-WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Benjamin Liu on March 12, 2012, 07:39:43 AM
I'm not familiar with the Mandt System, so I just took a quick look at their site.  I wouldn't consider it a credible system based on what I read.  I worked in a place similar to where your wife works, and in my experience the prevention/defusion stage can't really be done with verbal redirection, at least the way it is usually taught.  The staff really has to know the individual residents and the residents need to know the staff, just using verbal techniques taught in training won't work.  I was usually successful, but only after I got to know the residents and they got to know me.  Especially with one resident, a new staff was "Guy" until he knew his name, and as long as the staff was "Guy" he'd be attacked on almost every shift.  Once he knew your name (and it took a while) he'd still frequently attack, but nowhere near as often. 

I was taught a system called CIT (IIRC Client Intervention Techniques or maybe  Completely Idiotic Techniques) which pretty much did not work.  It might work for those in non-behavior houses.

I've never seen anyone successfully pull off any of their techniques.  I heard of one guy who tried and got beat up.  Most people resorted to wrestling.

I was able to technically do everything they taught and do it successfully only because of my training in Ninjutsu and FMA.  Stupid hand techniques can work if you have good footwork and since the dopes who set up CIT did not take footwork into account they did not mandate bad footwork.  A worthless release can work if you know how to take a person completly off balance by your footwork, and if you know how to move off the line of attack you don't have to rely on stupid blocks.

IMO it was much like the company's first aid and CPR training, just CYA for the company so they can claim their staff were trained.  I was filling in at a non-violent house where a staff member was feeding a resident who started to choke.  She just looked at me with wide eyes and said "He's choking" and froze up, and I used the Himelech and saved him.  That was due to my Boy Scout training, they taught these skills more thoroughly than supposed professionals.

I only had to deal with a knife once, and it was a high-functional resident so I did rely highly on verbal redirection and backed up by my real skills to take the knife away.  I have dealt with pens, pencils, and scissors on more occasions and basically used FMA trapping and disarming.  To people who don't know FMA trapping looks like you are just putting your hands in the way of the attack.

I was never bitten, so I don't really know what will work in real life to stop a bite on yourself.  The bites I stopped were against other residents.  I also do pressure points differently than most people.  I don't like the term because it seems to imply putting a little pressure on a point with your fingertips like you are pushing a button.  What I do is use a knuckle and drive hard through the point as if I'm driving the person to the ground.

I was always able to get out of position of a bite.  That starts with getting off line of the attack and if you fail at that, get out of any grab immediatly.

I'll give an example of the time I came very close to being bitten.  A new resident was assigned to the house, and this was a really big guy.  He was tall and bulky with a lot of muscle and he really liked to hit people.  One of the staff was terrified of him and made sure he was in another room.  I forgot whether he was my co-worker at the time or whether another equally useless staff was assigned to this shift.  They hired too many ghetto idiots who did not do any work, and often paired them with productive staff so the work would still get done.

Anyway, I was taking one resident's blood pressure which had to be done every night.  I was sitting down in a chair next to his.  The big brute came up and hit this resident, and the resident immediatly attacked me.  I had both my hands on the blood pressure cuff and was grabbed by the collar in the front. and pulled towards the resident for a bite.  I stood up and fell back which took him off balance and quickly took my T-shirt off.  Since he still had a grip on it.  I got out of range and with me out of range he fixated on biting my T-shirt.  I had claw cuts on my chest so I cleaned them with alcohol and dressed them and took out a new T-shirt from my bag.  The first aid kit I carried in my bag was better than the Wal-Mart one the company used.  I was concerned about an infection from the cuts but luckily I did not catch anything.

The shirt grab release taught in CIT was against someone grabbing a shirt at the side and having only a little bit of material in their fingers, not a full grab.  Every shirt grab I saw at work was like the one that happened to me, a front collar grab where they get a whole handfull of the shirt and immediatly pull the victim towards their mouth.

I guess the lessons there are quickly removable shirts are useful, escaping techniques from martial arts work better than CIT escapes, and it is much better to have non-lazy staff.  The guy I was working with should have stopped he big resident from attacking in the first place.  Usually lazy staff just meant that others had to do their work, but in these types of incidents people could get killed while they are in another room listening to rap music.

The only CIT technique I've seen work (and have used myself) is the Basket Weave, but they don't teach an effective way to get into it. 
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 12, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
Ben-good post-i have a student who works in the Western Hospital of Ky-with mental patients- same process there-you cant hit-only try to calm down and get away-she said 2 nurses have been attacked lately-scary type job for any one- as far as the lazy helpers-thats trajic and pitiful-guess it comes with working in that envirement-stay  safe  WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Benjamin Liu on March 12, 2012, 01:56:12 PM
Well, I don't work there now.  That was 12 years ago.  Looking back it was kind of nuts to take that job. :D

I think I figured out something that might work, but it might be difficult to practice.  Assuming they bite your forearm and it isn't a quick bite (some guys go for multiple bites- In the time it took me to run down the hall to intervene in an attack one resident bit another maybe 4 times on his chest.) rather than just pushing your forarm into his mouth, do that while also pushing his face back and down with your free hand while moving to keep up with him so he won't take a chunk out of your forearm.

Basically this technique is the one where you use your palm on the face to use his head as a  lever to take him down but doing it while preventing further damage to your bitten arm.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Canuk on March 12, 2012, 05:03:13 PM
When i took the NVCI training they advocated that should someone start chewing on your arm that you should take the index finger of your free hand and rub it across that dip you have under your nose. Madness
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: redfive on March 12, 2012, 09:20:21 PM
If I had to work around known biters id most likely carry one of those nice little 120,000volt stun guns. Put a probe in each eye and fire away. Jaws 2 comes to mind, when he bites that high tension wire. OOO yah. I  guess you would get alittle shock back beings he is touching you. My first instructor would teach the little kids that if grabbed by a adult or abductor, to bite the hell out of them. jaws are incredibly strong pound per square inch wise. I once saw that one system had a whole art to bitting. bad thing know days is AIDS and STDs. Bad for both parties. But again my instructor would say if you end up at crime scene two your almost 100% dead. bite the shit out of them and get free, know you have a 50/50 shot. That was in the 80s so with modern advances in medicine thats allot better today.

Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Canuk on March 13, 2012, 08:56:16 AM
Damn near next to impossible to get HIV/AIDS from a bite. Its the Hep ya gotta watch out for
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: whitewolf on March 13, 2012, 01:14:15 PM
HIV-I was told  by a deputy sheriff that if you were bit and get to the hospital witin 15 minute they now have a shot to give you -anyone hear of this treatment????WW
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Canuk on March 13, 2012, 04:51:02 PM
Ive been on the cocktail once, its no fun and scary as all hell.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: arnold on March 13, 2012, 06:58:07 PM
Stick your finger in their eye down to the second joint. Works extremely well
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Professor on March 14, 2012, 06:35:03 PM
yep.  while you're in there press the "no bite" button on the tip of their brain pan.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: Wardog on September 08, 2012, 08:02:17 PM
 Pit Bulls can not lock their jaws. That is myth. Nonsense.
Title: Re: Defense against biting
Post by: SabreActual on May 18, 2014, 09:23:55 AM
When I was a street cop if a suspect tried to bite me the response was immediate -  >:(

The human mouth is one of the filthest holes on the planet :o

Teeth are considered dangerous weapons ;D

Terminal diseases can be transmitted by a bite :-\

Justify the response and take care of the problem :-X