Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Wizard on August 22, 2012, 08:26:37 PM

Title: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Wizard on August 22, 2012, 08:26:37 PM
Ok, here's the gig, why not use the huge wealth of knowledge here???

A buddy I've known for almost 40 year is a K-9 Sheriff Deputy.  We were talking and he knows I do combatives stuff.  He asked if I'd come train a few other deputies and him for a couple hours.  The catch?  His friends think they want to know BJJ from their backs.  My buddy is also aware that the emphasis should be on survival and arrests, not wrestling on the ground.  I think this was prompted from couple cops getting taken down recently and not knowing what to do.

I agreed to show them a few basic submissions since they want that stuff (Not a BJJ guy but I have the basics).  They say they don' t need more striking as they know it.  My evolving plan is to do some takedown defenses, show some basic submissions as requested, and then spend most of the time teaching "dirty" ways to get out of bad spots (using Hock's, McCann's, Hubbard's stuff).  If you find yourself in a fair fight, you did't prepare well enough!

So if you had 2-3 hours to deliver some basic but solid ground defenses for officers, what would you teach them?
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: whitewolf on August 23, 2012, 01:44:30 AM
Interesting-at the school where I study we have police officers and military as we are right outside Ft Campbell-the chief instructor has been a bouncer, police officer, and been around awhile-the main thrust of our
learning is this-learn how to fight on the ground to GET UP-we do  not learn how to stay on the ground and hold the opponent down till help arrives-that is suicide-the background we are learning is from Goshinryu-jujitsu-krav maga-all thrown into the mix-repeated practise on blocking a punch/grab and attack the attacker-i would recommend that type program and overcome the police officers thoughts on going BJJ type movements-use Hocks methods is excellent--learning to create distance is the plan of the day--JMHO-WW (Richie)
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Canuk on August 23, 2012, 05:08:46 AM
Train them in their duty gear for a start. Train them to defeat the attacker and transition to their feet and move to a higher force option as soon as able. Don't forget weapon retention! 
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Wizard on August 23, 2012, 07:05:33 PM
I fully agree with getting up, creating space, weapon retention/transition.  Yes, we're going to have them train with their gear on and see how badly they want to stay on their backs!

I don't think they want to stay down and wrestle.  I do see utility in being aware of the holds the UFC wanna be might try, to know what they look and feel like--so you can avoid or defeat. But I'd shy away from spending too much time on this for the subject matter at hand.

Other thoughts? 
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: whitewolf on August 23, 2012, 08:27:19 PM
Another  thought to teach in class is this-have a street wise officer give them a talk on how a mad man thinks and how the madman has crossed the line between /insanity and how he/she will try to kill you without a blink of the eye----while you are attempting to calm them  down--JMHO  WW
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: arnold on August 25, 2012, 10:52:15 AM
Once on the ground their life is in the balance. Teach them to beat the living hell out of the dirtbag that made physical contact with them. At this point they are fighting for their life. Why would you want to get tied up with some asshole who may have a friend or two just standing around ready to use your head for kickball practice
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Canuk on August 25, 2012, 11:09:05 AM
High yeild targets, don't teach them to inch thier way to an armbar, stick with the soft squishy painful bits
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: szorn on August 25, 2012, 11:26:39 AM
As has been mentioned...

They need to be wearing duty gear, including belt, holsters, replica guns, etc. This will help them realize that wrastlin shouldn't be the objective. Avoid teaching them submission tactics while on the ground. The only such tactics they should be doing like this is while standing over a grounded subject.

When teaching ground defense I first teach them how to deal with a standing assailant while they are on the ground, then I move to ground defense/combatives where the assailant is on them in various positions. Focus on the basics of vicious strikes and using leverage to return to the standing position. Be sure to cover tactical get-ups as opposed to instinctive get-ups (that often expose the back). once on their feet they can create distance and deploy tools (firearm, baton, spray, etc) or transition to control holds and cuffing positions, depending on the circumstances.

It still baffles me that police and military get so caught up in the game of submission fighting.

Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: jmech on August 25, 2012, 08:29:52 PM
Having done exactly what you are asking for my previous department, here are some of my thoughts:

I don't teach submission holds.  I explain that to them and explain why: unless they are going to practice them several times a week, it's pointless.  They cannot learn the practical applications of submissions in 2-3 hours, then expect to apply it 10 months later in the heat of battle.

Instead of showing them a bunch of different things, I like to pick one or two that can be applied to several different situations.  I.E.- if I teach the "bridge and roll" escape from being mounted, I first show it from a two had strangle (basic application).  Then from being held down with one hand, and punched with the other.  Then from bad guy raining down punches with both hands.  The some applications against a knife or gun threat.  This way it looks like a bunch of stuff, but in reality it's one thing. And they are getting many more reps in to build some retention. And they are seeing that it can be applied to different situations.  Believe it or not, this alone can take an hour to an hour and a half out of your class between explanation, demo, reps, switch positions, reps, next application.

I also do some (for lack of a better term...) open guard stuff, with the goal of getting bad guy off of the officer and getting officer on their feet. With the movement exercises, weapon retention and acquisition drills, and other application practice, this fills up the rest of the three hours.

I've taught this to veteran officers and recruits and have gotten great feedback, even from the ones who (thought they) wanted submissions.

BTW: Another reason I don't like to teach submissions is liability.  If one of the coppers you teach uses a hold you taught and causes unjustified injury, it's not outside the realm of possibility of attorneys coming after you for not properly teaching it, not teaching proper application, etc, etc, etc.  Thats why everything I show is strictly defensive, aimed at getting the officer on their feet, and requires the bad guy to be actively assaulting the officer.

Bottom line: keep it "real", show them practical stuff for situations they are more likely to find themselves in.  Explain why you don't think submissions are practical for them/the class, and when they are done and tired and sweaty from the practice and seeing how "this shit would really work", they will still like it.  And hopefully have you back again for a refresher.

Hope this helps and good luck!

Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: whitewolf on August 26, 2012, 03:11:51 AM
Joe- a  excellent post-u  really  make sense on the teaching sbject-what u say applies to civilians as well as to PO's-the idea is not to d submission but to get up and out of harms way by destroyin the opponent or run like hell-  ;D-WW
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Wizard on August 28, 2012, 06:03:17 PM

I knew ya'll would come through with some great ideas and mindset.  We'll certainly be sifting through the suggestions.  I especially like the idea of not trying to show too much that, unless practice all the time, won't really work.  I have a tendency to put together enough material for 6 months training and try to teach it in the afternoon (cuz there's so much cool stuff out there!).  I fully agree with Arnold's tentative statement about being on the ground, too =) 
Great insights fellas!

Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: jmech on August 28, 2012, 07:47:13 PM
And, on a lighter note, read my advice posted on this OLD thread, third post from the bottom...

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,254.msg11942.html#msg11942 (http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,254.msg11942.html#msg11942)

Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: Canuk on August 28, 2012, 08:17:09 PM
And that link lead me to every course ive ever taken (and a few ive taught)
Title: Re: What Would YOU Teach???
Post by: whitewolf on August 31, 2012, 08:05:01 PM
Thought i  would pass this on as we are talking about  teaching-
Tonight at the class we practised on BASICS----Elbow strike after grab to opponents head with two hands and then throwing the elbow from various angles- throwing knee to his outer theigh-Then palm strike to chin-sterum-or liver-nothing fancy but using lots of torque from waist and foot -keeping it simple under stress--
then-practised kamora but blinding eyes first- I liked the class-WW