Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • August 21, 2017, 01:45:16 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: The Big Questions  (Read 3830 times)

mleone

  • Guest
The Big Questions
« on: December 20, 2005, 12:47:55 PM »

The Big Questions: 

  • In combat will  most people lose fine motor skills in the adrenal dump?
  • Can they maintain looseness in the adrenal dump?
    For example like techniques from systema that require looseness?
  • Arent we hardwired for the adrenal dump?
:)

I just wanted to get some good threads going!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2005, 12:50:58 PM by mleone »
Logged

JimH

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2020
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2005, 01:30:17 PM »

Adrenaline dump is a physical reaction,which is an unconscious response to an unknown, a fear,and is associated with increased heart rate,either from anticipation and or by heightened physical demand in response to threat.

Adrenaline is another unconscious physical response that can be controlled to an extent by exposure to the scenario or stimuli.

We experience A. dump in various levels all the time,but some are so common we do not notice,such as events while driving a car,being asked to give a speach,meeting a girl/guy we are interested in.
These all cause A.Dump until we experience them enough that we do not get as worked up or fearful of the outcome.

This exposure is key to adaptability and suppression or control of adrenaline dump.
If you saw the movie "Saving Private Ryan" you see the men hit the beach and you see the war through their eyes,fear,anxiety,anticipation,slow motion,hearing loss,freezing in place or going fetal.
Then you have the  experienced vet,he stop on the beach and opens his pack and gets a can and fills it with sand,he has no experiences like the rest,he is calm and intent on what he is doing,he fills the can and places it in his pack where you see the cans from all the other conflicts he has been in,he is controlled because the experience is a known ,the environment and all going on are not new and not scary to him.

If we apply exposure and scenarios(in a realistic encounter) and we make it a true encounter or as close to reality as possible the better prepared the person is when they see this for real.
(If we could get real experiences that would be a better level but exposure to life and death is hard to anticipate,no less recreate safely)

The military and some police training make it possible for people to be in a certain place at a certain time so they can surprise and attack and make training more realistic than can be done in a training environment.
(this is what we need to strive for,surprise and agression to the student when they do not expect it and get them to act then ,at that time)

If I am teaching a student something,I may suddenly and unexpectedly, just rush them,grab them and pin them to the wall and scream and yell and threaten to kill them,push and shove them around and along the wall.
The first few times they are shocked and lost,then you ask them well what would you do if it were real,everyone has a response,then when you say well why didn't you do something they have no response just excuses,after a short time they catch on that reaction at the time of event is critical,not analysis after the fact.

People will say that cardio conditioning will help control adrenaline dump,this is true to an extent,but if I take a marathon runner and grab him/her and start yelling at them,dragging them,fighting with them,if they respond and give it their all they will be spent in a few seconds,same as an out of shape person.
It is exposure to the events and the level of conflict that makes them better able to stay in the fight.

Adrenaline and heart rate seem to go hand in hand,if we can experience the event and learn to work at maximum level within that event and that will do more for control of Adrenaline than anything else,the more we experience the lower our heart rate and the lower the heart rate the more we can work in the various motor skills levels,from fine to compound to gross.
(Bruce siddle has some good amterials on this subject)

Time is a factor as we cannot fight all out for a long period,so we must learn to fight in any and all levels of Motor skills and in the various levels of adrenaline dump and end the fight or encounter as quickly as possible.

There is so much on this subject ,I hope I have given a basic understanding to the questions asked.
( my 2 cents)
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2005, 03:04:07 PM »

If I am teaching a student something,I may suddenly and unexpectedly, just rush them,grab them and pin them to the wall and scream and yell and threaten to kill them,push and shove them around and along the wall.

The first few times they are shocked and lost,then you ask them well what would you do if it were real,everyone has a response,then when you say well why didn't you do something they have no response just excuses,after a short time they catch on that reaction at the time of event is critical,not analysis after the fact.



Which is the element of surprise.
The greatest armies in the world have been defeated by the element of surprise. There's is just not a lot you can do against it. Surprise is suprise.

The military designs IADs - Immediate Action Drills (I believe there is a new name now) which is supposed to help by making reflexive responses to surprise attacks, but it is still tough and the trained responses are perishable-in that the responses can erode away through time. the callous disappears.

Much of the original adrenaline based info, is not really original , but rather virtually a copy machine version of the existing sport psychology-where all the ground work was layed.  Erase "sports arousal" and write in "adrenaline based" and much of the medical science is oddly, still the same. I tinker in this information frequently and am always looking outside the normal sources for information. 

I know I have always performed my best when I allowed myself to be half-adrenalized, or slightly excited. I could do this. A grove. An elation. There was no real dump-dump, but I was a better performer. It is bio-feedback kind of thing?

But surprise is surprise is surprise. Ambush is an ambush is an ambush.

Hock
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 10:01:46 AM by Hock »
Logged

Adventure

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
    • Stay Alive Program inc.
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2005, 01:44:55 AM »

When I went to paramedic school one of our instructors told us about how the physiology of stress works on are minds & bodies. During a stressful encounter our bodies release adrenaline, but it also releases another hormone called cortisol. Cortisol is a stress hormone that moves up to the front part of the brain & shuts off the frontal cortex preventing higher reasoning, this was done so that a million years ago our “monkey uncles” would run from the T-rex instead of standing there wondering which course of action would be best to take. So we were taught that cortisol is apart of the whole A.dump, but is the part that shuts down the ability to think. BUT, there is a way around it.

The brain & most parts of the body have receptor sites that pick up these hormones that are floating around in the body & turn them into electrical signals that tell the body or brain to do things. When cortisol is floating around the brain the receptor sites pick them up & shut down the thinking; the way to avoid this from happening is by exposing the brain to as much of this hormone as possible.

When we have an over abundance of cortisol in the brain all the time the receptor sites start to do what is call “down regulate”, which is to get rid of some of these receptor sites that turn off the thinking. My instructor told us that we would experience this on calls where we knew what needed to be done but we just couldn’t think, we might even repeat the same question over & over again. Like asking, “So what is your name?” “So what is your name?”…(Oops sorry brain shut down there:) He said we just needed to do a lot of ride-a-longs to get exposure & run a lot of calls so that the cortisol would not affect us.

He also said that they had a class of SEALS come through their paramedic program & you could not phase these guys at all; he said they were the type that if a bullet went whizzing by that you wouldn’t even get arise out of them, because they had been through so much stress that this things just did not phase them. 

JimH said,
Then you have the experienced vet, he stop on the beach and opens his pack and gets a can and fills it with sand, he has no experiences like the rest, he is calm and intent on what he is doing, he fills the can and places it in his pack where you see the cans from all the other conflicts he has been in, he is controlled because the experience is a known, the environment and all going on are not new and not scary to him.

This would go along with what my instructor taught, because the experienced vet’s brain has long ago “down regulated” the receptor sites in his brain giving him the ability to think through what he needs to do in that situation.

I remember a time when I got into my 1st car accident & time slowed down; I could see everything that was happening & even remembering telling myself to steer out of the way, but my body did not respond. Then everything sped back up after we hit. The same thing happened in my 1st fight, everything slowed down & I could see the punch coming, but could not get out of the way. What if you could train your self to see things in slow motion, but still move to get out of the way? Someone once told me that the Sub-conscious mind moves or thinks faster then the conscious mind, so when we tap into it at certain time in our lives things appear to slow down. Of course I do not know if this is true, but it sounded cool.


David
 




mleone

  • Guest
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2005, 05:56:09 AM »

Quote
Cortisol is a stress hormone that moves up to the front part of the brain & shuts off the frontal cortex preventing higher reasoning

Cortisol also assists your body in a knife fight in terms of blood release out of wounds.

It also removes belly fat !  :D
I had to add that in adventure!

"Time slows down" thats Tachpsychia for ya!
Logged

Ed Stowers

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 121
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2005, 10:15:46 AM »

Good information and posts, gentlemen.  I think what I have often seen and experienced, is a combination of both surprise and adrenal dump.  That is, if the surprise is the cause of the adrenal stress, or combined with it, then you get the various standard adrenal reactions (deer-in-the-headlights freezing, inability to think, tachi psychi effects, etc.)  I've seen this even in trained martial artists, who were very good in the dojo or sports ring, and they're suddenly surprised by an attack they are not expecting and they go into classic adrenal shock reaction.  It's almost as it their minds go "uh-oh, this time it's for real" or perhaps "is this really happening?" or something, and they just freeze up or don't perform aggressively or with any "heart.".  And these are trained, highly-experienced fighters.  But their training was in one setting and based on the myth of the duel, and when you take away that setting and someone who fights the same way they do--or any of the sport situation they usually trained in--they just go inert and the AD shuts them down.  So, I suspect it occurs when you use the element of surprise to initiate adrenal dump.  Once it occurs, it seems the fine motor skills go, as does most cognitive ability and memory.  You can retain, if I remember correctly, only about 5 bits of information at that point.  And this is where you "fight the way you train" comes into effect.  Your conscious mind tend sto shut down under that kind of adrenal stress and your body just does what you trained it to do--provided it does anything at all other than stand there in shock.  This is why surprise reaction drills are useful.

I think the surprise reaction drills are very good for training the body to act in spite of surprise/AD effects.  But you condition an automatic response pretty much to a certain stimuli, almost Pavlovian in its approach.  You get a certain stimuli (enemy lifts his hand) and you react (you strike).  I know this is the type of training used in the military to counter ambushes (the height of surprise) by attacking directly into the ambush and changing the equation.  That type of drill is very good for countering surprise, but I think careful thought is needed when selecting your automatic reaction drills to surprise AD.  A soldier's reaction is almost always a lethal force reaction and that's what they need to drill on.  Civilians need to carefully select such responses for their own environment, as often a lethal response may not be required.

I think the advantage of vets in any realm is that they've "been there before" and what is occuring is familair to them, so even if they don't like it, they can deal with it.  As the saying goes, experience is based on scar tissue...or at least on good judgment....which is usually based on past bad judgment.   :)

But when you add surprise to the usual AD thing, even vets can be shaken, albeit not as much perhaps as a newbie.  They've experienced AD before and their system accepts it.  They've had prior conditioning.  Since AD occurs almost any time you're surprised and scared, the reason reaction drills work is that you have trained them into your unconscious reactions and don't have to "think" about them.  If you have to stop and think, you can't, in that condition.  It's automatic reaction: push button-get banana.  But it's also fair to say that it's much, much harder to surprise a vet, as they've seen most of what can be done to them already (but seldom all).

From an offensive point of view, then, the more you can combine surprise with aggressive attack, the more likely it will be to induce AD effects into your enemy as well.  This is nothing new, but we tend to talk about it in more interesting terms these days, and I think we are finding new distinctions that--while they've always been there--were generally not articulated in the same fashion.  There are no new stories, only different ways of presenting them. :)

But thanks.  I've really enjoyed reading the discussion on this.

Ed
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 10:02:02 AM »

Interesting to re-read.

JimH

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2020
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 12:42:43 PM »

Nice reread,especially when we were talking about this before people started to question Mr Siddle and his supposed correlation between heart rate and adrenaline dump and the supposed limiting factors  of higher heart rate on what a person in the various heart rate ranges could do.
That idea / concept has been  blown out of the water.
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: The Big Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 03:19:14 PM »

A cop friend went to a mandatory PPCT course last month (yes, still around) and had to sit through the mandatory heart rate chart bull...

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/death-to-the-heart-chart/index.htm

 

Download