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Author Topic: Apache Knife Fighting Details  (Read 59508 times)

Snake Blocker

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Apache Knife Fighting Details
« on: April 21, 2006, 09:19:50 PM »

Clarification:  When you only look at ONE tribal band or sub-band of Apache training, the curriculum is limited to a specific terrain training, but when you research into all the Apache's training tactics, it is endless.  I learn more from my Apache brothers every year.  At one point in history, there were 100s of Apache bands all over North American from Mexico to Canada, thus far, my research has studied over 20 different Apache bands training tactics. 
1.  Apacheis de Nabaju/Navajo Apaches (Dine Tribal Group)
2.  Arivipa Apaches (Band)
3.  Bedonkohe Apaches (Band)
4.  Casadore Apaches (Band)
5.  Chokonen Apaches (Band)
6.  Chiricahua Apaches (Regional Group) 
7.  Cibecue Apaches (Sub-Band)
8.  Coyotero Apache (Band)
9. Cuelgahen Nde Lipan (Lipon) Apaches (Sub-Band)
10.  Hoyero Apaches (Sub-Band)
11.  Jicarilla-Tinde Apaches (Regional Group)
12.  Kiowa-Gataka Apaches (Regional Group) – The Kiowa Apaches were Plain Indians.  Kiowa Apaches were, also known as, the Gataka Nation of Native Americans, and Naishandina
13.  Lipan (Lipon) Apaches (Regional Group) – Lipan Apaches were known by many names: Lipajenne, Lipanes de Arriba, Lipanes de Abajo, Ipande,  Apache de los Llanos,  Nide [Buffalo Hunters], Eastern Apaches, Ipa-n'de N'de. Náizhan, Cancy, Chanze, Caddo, Kä'ntsi
14. Llanero Apaches (Sub-Band)
15. Mescalero-Faraon Apaches (Regional Group)
16. Mimbreno Chiricahua Apaches (Sub-Band)
17. Mojave Apaches (Band)
18. Nednhi Apaches (Band)
19. Ojo Caliente Apaches (Band)
20. San Carlos Apaches (Band)
21. Tcihende Mimbres Apaches (Band)
22. Tonto Apaches (Band)
23. Northern Tonto Apaches (Sub-Band)
24. Southern Tonto Apaches (Sub-Band)
25. Warm Springs Apaches (Sub-Band)
26. Western-Pinal Coyotero Apaches (Regional Group)
27. White Mountain-Coyoteros Apaches (Band)
28. White Mountain Eastern Apaches (Sub-Band)
29. Yuma Apaches (Band) 
To learn more, buy my new Training manual: Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics Vol. 1, BAMA Pulication $25  100% money back quarentee More info at: www.blockeracademy.com

I filmed some MCQC training for the military (knife, gun, riffle, hand to hand, and kickboxing) in Kuwait in 2004 & in Iraq in 2005.  But it is not available to the public. I will gladly do a video with Hock if Hock wants and if there is a demand for it.  Let Hock know who is interested in Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics or Muay Thai.  I taught in Thailand in Bangkok and Yala in 2003 for a month and I've trained and fought for over 10 years in the States and abroad.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:49:04 PM by Hock »
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grlaun

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 06:39:02 AM »

Snake is the real deal.
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grlaun

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 10:21:49 AM »

OMG! :o
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shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 01:42:03 PM »

Snake!
You da man, maybe this Winter Sacto CQC camp, you teach some Apache knife fighting?
The last event was perfect, thanks for the bruises on last day too, and the conversation on marraige...guess what!  I got married, taking SOME of your advice too!

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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 10:11:15 AM »

What exactly is the difference between knife fighting, and, Apache knife fighting?

...apart from the wig, horse, shoes n' stuff..
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harvey

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 02:14:21 AM »

Seen the show with Snake Blocker and the Apaches were impressive. I personally would like to see a Apache knife dvd series. I think it would add another dimension to my knife/counter knife training. After seeing the show I would be confident in buying Snake Blockers dvds and a Apache seminar.

thanks
harvey hilton
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rasdj

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 08:47:43 AM »

fyi the full episode is online at spiketv.com
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Kaliman33

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 07:43:54 AM »

I watched the show last night, pretty impressive, the gladiators weapons where cool, liked the spike hand wrap, might have to make one.
This is the first time i saw snake, he was very impressive. he stated the apache knife is the best in the world, i would like to see it compared to a filipino expert like guro Inosanto, or even Leo Gaja, i guess i am a little biased to the filipino stuff cause i think it is right up there, cool show though.

Marc
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Kaliman33

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 10:15:58 AM »

i alos did'nt understand how that other apache was the world knife fighting champion, where are these tournaments, how do you become a world knife champ??
just woundering
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D. McLemore

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 06:32:54 PM »

  Hoch & Snake:

 Normally I would not say anything openly about this but, maybe it needs to be said.  First I don't have a lot of use for these scientific analysis martial arts programs like the one on Spike T.V. that addressed the silly supposition of comparing tactics and techniques of the Apache to those of the arena of Rome.  Geez.....I ran across this the other night, late and got excited at first. When it was all said and done what you had was a lot of testing/mesurements, chopping up fiber/cellouse dummies and all that. The comparison of weapons was all over the board ranging from bows to knives and a hell of a lot of 'one liners' getting swapped between the gladiators and the apache teams as to who was the best.  I'm usually very tolerant of any form of entertainment but the 'bottom-line' is that this program was not very well put together. The idea of comparing Gladiators who fought a blood sport to the tactical efficiency of Apache warfare just does not fit and reallly was not a good comparison. I would have preferred to have compared warriors from a closer time frame let's maybe Apache vs. Texas Rangers or even Mexican Army.  So there is the negative aspect.

On the positiive side:  I've been researching  Gladitorial combat for over 5 years now and even have an unfinished manuscript on the subject. All that said the GLaditorial team did a good job demonstrating the some of the unique weapons.  I was particularly impressed with the Sica and Scissors weapons.  They looked in great shape and knew their trade.  I would have liked to have seen them compared to thier likely opponent, the Roman Army (Remember Sparticus) .  More emphasis needed to  have been stress on the different types of Gladitors and how they were pair with specific opponents such as the Secutor vs. Retiarius or Murilllo vs. Tharex.

Snake and his associate (sorry I can't remember his name)  made the best of the presentations and demonstrations.  Now I know why Hoch speaks so highly of you Snake. I did not sees any questionable techniques on their part.  I would have liked to have seen more attention and credit given to the Apache's use of stealth and ambush techniques.  They should have expanded on the fact that the Apaches was mounted and probably the finest light calvery in the world.  Again the 'worlds' of the two warriors just did not match up very well in terms of determine what 'deadlist' meant.
The Apache relied on firearms too and that should have also been added to the equation.

 The Chuck Lidell sequences were fun and interesting.  Message:  Don't get hit by him.

 I hope I've not been too critical, for I know how difficult making the videos are .  I just wish the scientific and entertainment business would take a bit more time in editing and putting these things together.   

  Snake:  If you pop-in here drop me a line at d-mclemore@worldnet.att.net....I need to talk some indian stuff for my last tomahawk book.  Again, great to see your face and watch you work.

All My Best
Dwight.
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »

  I saw the first couple segments and two things stood out. The first being the effectiveness of the tomahawk. The second was the use of multiple knives as presented.



  I was not surprised at all with damage done when Snake struck the stationary skull with the Tomahawk. It was devastating to say the least but what was interesting was it seemed Snake himself was surprised at the damage. This could come down to editing or something but I found it interesting, curious. If Snake would have stayed with the Tomahawk and focused on that, it would have kept my attention. I'm also very interested in Native war clubs and things too.

  The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like. 

  I have personally viewed hundreds and hundreds of pictures of Native Americans. I have been all over the west, been to countless museums and even spent time at the Smithsonian Institute, University of Oklahoma, and other libraries looking at Native Artifacts. I have never seen one picture of any Indian with multiple knives much less found any evidence that any Indian Apache or otherwise would carry multiple knives. Certainly there could be a argument made that one would carry a large and small knife but that's where it ends.

  When I first came across references to Apache Knife Fighting a few years back all kinds of red flags went off. Later when I found the leader of the organization was from my home state of Arkansas I decided to look into the subject in depth. My conclusion was it was one guys money maker and there was no historical evidence to back up any of his teachings. Later he would be imprisoned there was then criminal evidence against the man but most already know that story.

  I would like to point out a few things here, The first being that steel knives were a western deal. All steel knives used by Indians were obtained outside of their population and were made by others. Native Americans never had any history of smelting steel for weapons and even today outside of a few farriers they have no representation in knife making or manufacture.

  Apache were a product of their environment. They were hard and tuff from living outdoors year around, it does not make any sense for them to carry more than one or two stone knives as they could make more if needed and steel knives were a great expense.

Then there are traveling and safety issues that make such ideas highly improbable. While on active duty I was known to carry all kinds of extra junk around but later when I went backpacking for a entire year, I learned the value of weight. I cannot imagine any right minded person ever needing or wanting to carry more than two knives. Two guns? That is a separate matter because of ammo issues.


  If anyone can come up with anything as evidence to show that Apache Knife Fighting as currently instructed is anything other than a made up story I would like to see it. I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.







  According to Snakes Bio, a very extensive one written by him and posted on his website he was instructed by Robert Redfeather and Certified as a Apache Knife Fighting Instructor by Robert Redfeather.

http://www.blockersavateclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=32

Certified Basic Instructor - Apache Knife Survival/Fighter
received the rank and the Apache name, "Kicking Dog," from Robert Redfeather, Ghost Dog Apache Knife Founder



 

 
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 02:46:18 AM »


Where are all the knives?






Apache chief Geronimo (right) and his warriors in 1886







Geronimo, 101 Ranch 1905, (Geronimo is the driver)
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D. McLemore

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 06:02:47 AM »

The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like.

Hey Bryan. Here are some of my thoughts on your comments, not a challange just another point of view. 

 I agree about the plot getting lost in modern training....we are all guilty of this.  I used to think like this till I really got into reading some of the 1st person accounts from the period (18th/19th Century)  Actually the East Coast indians threw-the-hell out of the tomahawk, accessed the knife for close range. I've got about 10 accounts that talk about this several from the Library of Congress site called American Memory...there are more out there.  Comic book training?  That is not really fair, staged sequences is probably more appropriate choice of words.

 The use of tomahawk and knife together is and probably will always be historically questionable.  I've trained at it and included it if only to provide training options rather than a historical fact in my first book.  Since then I've actually read an account that talks about a farmer getting struck in the head then stabbed in the abdomen with the knife which alludes to maybe he had the hawk in one hand and the knife in the other. I long since stopped trying to replicate 'historical techniques' but rather experiment with what works whether it is  Kung Fu, Kempo, or whatever.  Use history rather than replicate it is the approach I think.

 I have personally viewed hundreds and hundreds of pictures of Native Americans. I have been all over the west, been to countless museums and even spent time at the Smithsonian Institute, University of Oklahoma, and other libraries looking at Native Artifacts. I have never seen one picture of any Indian with multiple knives much less found any evidence that any Indian Apache or otherwise would carry multiple knives. Certainly there could be a argument made that one would carry a large and small knife but that's where it ends.

   Been there, seen it, got that T-Shirt too.   From what I've researched of the East Coast indians and this IS in written word from a lot of historians much, much more knowledgable than I :  The indians of the 17th Century usually carried knife (flint or steel) warclub (was definitely a part of their warrior culture at this time) Spear, or bow.
 Now, 18th/19th century you see the spear replaced with the rifle and the associated small patch knife being included.  Possibles bag, powder horn, and associated items need to make & service the weapon.

  What you say about the far west may be true, but I suspect the Apache carried whatever he could.  As to that first picture of Geronimo and his boys, I bet everone has a knife and probably an pistol at their back.  They may have been on the reservation for this obviously staged photo.  It's been a long time but I think I saw Geronimo's knife at the museum at Fort Sill.

Apache were a product of their environment. They were hard and tuff from living outdoors year around, it does not make any sense for them to carry more than one or two stone knives as they could make more if needed and steel knives were a great expense.

    Not in the 19th Century or for that matter in the 18th either.  While there were very few native american smiths, by that time getting their hands of metal weapons was almost a cottege industry within itself.

If anyone can come up with anything as evidence to show that Apache Knife Fighting as currently instructed is anything other than a made up story I would like to see it. I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.

       I think what bothers you is someone calling it Apache Knife Fighting .  One just needs to do a little research to get an ideas how these "word of mouth" cultures fought.  Pete Kautz researched the WPA project that interviewed a lot of people from the West who were alive in the 19th Century,  these paint a picture of a natural type of movement style that was not necessaily defined by a specific fighting system. Dr. Wayne Van Horne's work on the warclub (you need to get his thesis) talks about the wardance and certain tag games being a basis from an indigenious fighting method that may have animal movement influences. (again East Coast Indians). 

  When it's all said and done, I don't mind someone calling it anything they want to, whether it is for marketing or whatever.  I can learn from it.  A little Kali does not hurt anyone.

  Well, good luck with your research if you run across anything of interest drop me a line.

All My Best
Dwight

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Canuk

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2009, 04:16:24 PM »

I watched the show, I think i would like SB if i met him. The other guy seemed...odd, seemed very surprised when his Tomahawks and arrows hit the tagets. Did anyone else notice this?
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2009, 12:25:35 AM »



 I need to clarify a few things, I am a big fan of Geronimo and Apaches. I am both Choctaw and Cherokee with my great grandmother born on a reservation in Oklahoma where Grand Lake is now. As a kid I was always the Indian and when in Oklahoma I'm Brown enough to be treated as a second class citizen but not Indian enough to have a Card.

  Certainly any Apache family would be having their kids mess around with knives and great skills may or may not come from such things. This in no way says that Apaches or any tribe would a have a similar system of training that is basic FMA with new names. That is my point of contention, FMA and Systems are for city folk, that simple. Any kid that grew up like I did swinging a machete, axes, hatchets, and using knives in the woods will have skills with such tools that can never be taught, Its learned by doing.

  If that's how Snake learned, by doing, good for him and if he wants to call it Apache Knife I have no issue with that. The whole Robert Redfeather Apache Knife thing is a separate matter and a story he made up as far as I can tell. This is one of the problems of selling knives and knife training, most of the potential customers are completely ignorant on both sides of the subject. When you mix in Movie people it even gets worse, there is big money to be made and story tellers themselves giving a ear to anyone who can tell tall tales that film nice.

  Absolutely Geronimo not only had one knife, he had many. Problem is, as far as I can tell he only carried one at a time and all the evidence I can find shows Natives with one big knife, them also packing a smaller knife is pure speculation my part. If anyone can point me towards books or pictures that have Natives packing a half dozen knives outside of a Wild West Show, please do so, I would like to know about it.

  Geronimo is said to have been given many knives as presents and there are claims he also gave away many knives. This story seems to make since but I have not found any information yet that I can confirm. I have seen a few pictures and even a sketch said to be knives owned by Geronimo and I will start gather information on this. The main knife I saw attributed to Geronimo looked to be a guardless trade knife, large and typical in the style of a Original Bowie or Butcher knife. It was nothing fancy but a great user and I suspect that's the kind of knife he would have.

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D. McLemore

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 08:08:22 AM »

Bryan:

   I can't talk to you with any degree of intelligence about Gerinomo and Apaches.  Just have not got around to the far West and besides 'God & Everyone' these days are becoming experts on this subject ( Also like Gladiators)  and when I see this happening, I go study something else.  Sort of like Bowie Knife Instructors & Tomahawk Instructors, again 'everyone is an expert'

I need to clarify a few things, I am a big fan of Geronimo and Apaches. I am both Choctaw and Cherokee with my great grandmother born on a reservation in Oklahoma where Grand Lake is now. As a kid I was always the Indian and when in Oklahoma I'm Brown enough to be treated as a second class citizen but not Indian enough to have a Card.
 
     My family tree was Scot/Irish immigrants, poor as dirt and I still am proud of them.  You have a rich cultural heritage that no bias of any man can take away from you. Your insights should make you the better man.

That is my point of contention, FMA and Systems are for city folk, that simple. Any kid that grew up like I did swinging a machete, axes, hatchets, and using knives in the woods will have skills with such tools that can never be taught, Its learned by doing.
 
    I'm sure this is not the case with you, but I've seen this argument used as a cop-out for not training.  I grew up in a small town in Louisiana and spent every summer  on my grandfather's farm in the hills of Tennessee.  I did this too,(probably too much)  and the shortfall was that no matter the lessons learned in that environment, there WAS NO learning structure nor requirement to have any but cut/stack brush.  Any modern person  who has ever cut and stacked tobbaco in a a barn will probably tell you that other than making one strong there was no martial lesson there other than I never wanted to do that 'shit' ever again. 

 'City Folk' ?   What is that supposed to mean.  FMA certainly originated in rural villages and parallels can be found as far back as medieval an rennaissance Europe. 

This is one of the problems of selling knives and knife training, most of the potential customers are completely ignorant on both sides of the subject. When you mix in Movie people it even gets worse, there is big money to be made and story tellers themselves giving a ear to anyone who can tell tall tales that film nice.

    Yep, you nailed that !  I totally agree,  but have to tell you that the 'Hype' and bias will always be there and I've got to the point where I've learned to accept it as just the 'Nature of the Beast'  and knowing the difference between these things and reality is what is important.  I have a lot of friends and associates in the stage combat arena. I've been lucky to have trained with some of those that are the best in that business.  All of them are really quite clear is that the mission of movies is 1st to entertain, and 2nd create an illusion.  As you there are a lot of people that can't tell the difference between Arts and Reality. When you throw in martial sports then things get real confusing for the general public.   I think your point may well be is when people film these sort of programs under the implied guize that it is 'Reality'. There is the problem I had with that t.v. program.   'Bottom line' is I think these things will get better as time progresses and people become more educated.

Geronimo is said to have been given many knives as presents and there are claims he also gave away many knives. This story seems to make since but I have not found any information yet that I can confirm. I have seen a few pictures and even a sketch said to be knives owned by Geronimo and I will start gather information on this. The main knife I saw attributed to Geronimo looked to be a guardless trade knife, large and typical in the style of a Original Bowie or Butcher knife. It was nothing fancy but a great user and I suspect that's the kind of knife he would have.

   I wish I had the presence of mind when I saw that knife in the museum to have photographed it but I was a young cadet then and more interested in jumping out of airplanes and tanks at the time.  I think your correct on him owning many knives.

Well, again another good discussion.  Good luck with your training and research.

All My Best
Dwight

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Snake Blocker

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 12:15:52 PM »

Alan "Colorado Warrior" Tafoya is a full blooded Jicarilla Apache.  He is a direct descentant of the famous Apache Chief, Magnus Colorado.  Colorado means "Red," and Magnus Colorado means "Red Sleaves." 

Alan's father was the Police Chief of the Jicarilla Apache Reservation for over 20yrs before he passed away in 2000.  One of Alan's uncles was also on the Police force and his other uncle (which I've met) is a Medicine Man. 

Alan Tafoya won the 1999 and 2000 Soldier of Fortune Knife Championship in Las Vegas, Nevada and he has studied martial arts and kickboxing since he was a child.  He received his first bow and arrow set when he was just 4 years old.

Alan is also an actor, musician and song writter.  He was featured in the book, "Vital Point Strikes by Sang H. Kim, Turtle Press (416 pages) which came out this year.  His girlfriend is actress, Cynthia Straus.  Alan has two beautiful daughters (both in their 20s) and one grandson.  I've met his entire family and girlfriend and they are the nicest people.  Alan has been featured in several Native films, magazines, and short films.  He just completed a role in Spec Ops which will air in July of this year on television (produced by Morining Star Entertainment). Alan's biography was featured on the film, "Dancing on the Edge," which talks of his world on the reservation and shows his victory win for the 2nd time as S.O.F. Knife Champion.  Alan and I did a 30 mins interview this week on KCIE 90.5 FM (Public Radio) in New Mexico.  Alan and I completed the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics seminar on the Apache Reservation last month.  He is a great friend and brother to me.  The information we teach at these seminars are based on information we receive from elders of the Apache bands...stories that were passed down from Great-great grandparents to great grandparents to grandparents, and so on.  These are stories of Apache fighting that you will not get from history books.  Many Apaches believed that having pictures taken of them took a piece of their spirit also, so few historic pictures are available.  One of the great-grandsons and great-great grandsons of Goyathlay (aka: Geronamo) lives in Colorado.  I met the great-great grandson, and he too is one of the nicest guys around.   Most of society knows very little of the Apaches, because they only know what they see on western movies or a few documentaries.  The Apache history goes so much deeper than that, and that is why 15 years ago I started researching and teaching our culture.  Those that really reasearch our culture will be facinated at what they'll find.
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grlaun

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 10:08:44 PM »

Snake was the MAN on ultimate warrior. Loved all the knives you had, slamming them on the table for effect!
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whitewolf

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 11:08:01 PM »

After reading the posts i went to u tube and found a vidio of SB doing some self defense tacics-pretty interesting- i dont know the date of the vidio-there was a female with him holding weapons and the attacker/attackers had cowboy hats on-vidio was made outdoors--ww (elb)
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2009, 01:33:55 AM »

Alan "Colorado Warrior" Tafoya is a full blooded Jicarilla Apache.  He is a direct descentant of the famous Apache Chief, Magnus Colorado.  Colorado means "Red," and Magnus Colorado means "Red Sleaves." 

Alan's father was the Police Chief of the Jicarilla Apache Reservation for over 20yrs before he passed away in 2000.  One of Alan's uncles was also on the Police force and his other uncle (which I've met) is a Medicine Man. 

Alan Tafoya won the 1999 and 2000 Soldier of Fortune Knife Championship in Las Vegas, Nevada and he has studied martial arts and kickboxing since he was a child.  He received his first bow and arrow set when he was just 4 years old.

Alan is also an actor, musician and song writter.  He was featured in the book, "Vital Point Strikes by Sang H. Kim, Turtle Press (416 pages) which came out this year.  His girlfriend is actress, Cynthia Straus.  Alan has two beautiful daughters (both in their 20s) and one grandson.  I've met his entire family and girlfriend and they are the nicest people.  Alan has been featured in several Native films, magazines, and short films.  He just completed a role in Spec Ops which will air in July of this year on television (produced by Morining Star Entertainment). Alan's biography was featured on the film, "Dancing on the Edge," which talks of his world on the reservation and shows his victory win for the 2nd time as S.O.F. Knife Champion.  Alan and I did a 30 mins interview this week on KCIE 90.5 FM (Public Radio) in New Mexico.  Alan and I completed the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics seminar on the Apache Reservation last month.  He is a great friend and brother to me.  The information we teach at these seminars are based on information we receive from elders of the Apache bands...stories that were passed down from Great-great grandparents to great grandparents to grandparents, and so on.  These are stories of Apache fighting that you will not get from history books.  Many Apaches believed that having pictures taken of them took a piece of their spirit also, so few historic pictures are available.  One of the great-grandsons and great-great grandsons of Goyathlay (aka: Geronamo) lives in Colorado.  I met the great-great grandson, and he too is one of the nicest guys around.   Most of society knows very little of the Apaches, because they only know what they see on western movies or a few documentaries.  The Apache history goes so much deeper than that, and that is why 15 years ago I started researching and teaching our culture.  Those that really reasearch our culture will be facinated at what they'll find.



  Snake, Glad to see you are reading this stuff. I never mentioned Alan Tafoya as I figured he would not ever read this as he has never registered on the forum. My understanding is you only met him recently on the set of the TV show you filmed, If thats not correct, how long have you known him? Are you implying that you learned Apache Knife Fighting from him?

  You have mentioned the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics Seminar. Have you been instructing there with Allen Tafoya since the beginning? Is this something you and him started together?  Was this your first year to instruct there?


  What is your background with Apache Knife Fighting? Did you grow up on a Apache Reservation? Do you know anything about horses? The reason I first looked into this subject was because I found it interesting, not to be a critic.


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shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2009, 02:37:09 PM »

Hey Bryan...you should go check it out, seems you have serious doubts about whether Apache knife combat. This is my thoughts on the subject....

Any time you talk about Native Americans, you need to understand that you are analyzing a group of humans who were subjected to genocide and war by the US government, and white history was written from white perspective.  The knowledge of warcraft possessed by tribal groups in history books and photos are minimal representations from the white perspective.  Remember, savages was the term used to describe the enemy.  You think history books and photos will provide you with all the info you need to make a conclusion that Apaches did or did not include knives in their combatives?  And that Apache knife fighting is a fallacy?  :D

Well, there are countless historical records of combat with all Native Americans wielding  Knives, tomahawks, and bows.  And T-hawks and knives were thrown in battle.  US calvary men were impressed with this and mimicked their skill in camp tournaments!!   

And of steel... Nowhere does any native warrior declare they made steel tools and weapons prior to contact.  They learned how to fabricate weapons (like arrow points) from metal they either traded or took.

Multiple knives, multiple weapons carried on person...Carrying a quiver of arrows and a few knives, an extra T-hawk, etc was common among many tribal warriors for ions for one very good reason....they tend to break in battle!  Especially bone and stone! 

Apache and Sayoc kali are not even in the same ball park.  Sayoc is a FMA style evolved in recent years from family lineage and based solely on knife combat, the style revolves around the knife platform.  Apache knife combat was component of necessity from daily survival to raiding combat. The difference is the Apache (+ other tribal) tactician did not see fighting revolving around a particular weapon, but transitioned to the knife when in range or when other weapon was inferior.  The Apache tactician were the "Makita drill" and knife was one of many drill bits. 

Lastly, read "Geronimo" his autobiography and you will find out just how important the bow, knife, T-hawk were to Apache.  They as well as other tribes have a knife combat method (ever hear of Apache grip? we call it ice pick or reverse grip). 

Whether someone is teaching this method to the non-tribal public, and whether the instructors method is authentic is another issue.  But the fact that Apache and other tribal warriors used knives is indisputable.  And the fact that each tribe had developed tactics based on their environment, mission, weapon material and availability, and time frame is also indisputable.

Can't convince a skeptic in the 21st century that the Apache were very proficient with weapons, including knives...but maybe some day you can zoom back in time to 1860-80s and you can find out first hand how effective the Apache was as a warrior...with any weapon!

And Snake...O si yo!
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2009, 08:04:45 PM »


  Shastana, There are two threads on this going at the same time, read my words in both of them.


  I know plenty about Native Americans, my comparison of what was presented on the show to Sayoc Kali is pretty straight forward. These are the only two groups I have ever known who advocate the use of multiple knives. Tell me, who carries around six knives if they have a bow and arrows? Who carries around six knives if they are packing ammo and firearms? Show me some historical photographs of any Native American with more than one knife? How about some drawings of Native Americans with more than one knife?

 Where are the details of this in historical records, in artifacts? There may be some out there but I have never seen them or even heard a rumor of this occurrence. The only time I have known of it till Snake showed up on Spike TV pulling a bunch of knives like clowns getting out of a little car at the circus was Sayocs. In fact Sayocs were laughed right out of  some FMA circles for advocating their multiple knife and training belt tactics. 


 Maybe other people would like to chime in on this since I have people trying to school me on the subject, Does anyone advocate the carry of more than one or two knives?


« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 08:25:19 PM by Bryan »
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harvey

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 12:48:57 AM »

It makes since to me that they would carrie multiple weapons if I was an Apache and another tried to take over my world I would definitely carrie more than two Knives. Since I do not live in that time i just carrie one knife. I would type more but I have to go train.

Thanks
Harvey
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shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 02:36:50 PM »

Bryan, I re-read your posts a bit, ok, now I understand your view a little better.  I see you are not condescending here, I misunderstood your views, so I retract my "schooling" overtone. I am also mixed blood white-Cherokee, so we are on the same page.  On a side note, you and I both know how it is to be a mixed blood, not enough to be a tribal insider, but not enough to be your pure euro.  It is a struggle to get truth from any angle about the past, huh?  Life in the middle...just glad it is 2000+, my blood father tried to hide his ethnicity to avoid all the hate.  Messed up world we live in sometimes...Back to topic.

I think the question expects a direct answer, yes or no.  Were knives and T-hawks thrown, and did warriors carry more than one or two knife or hawk?  Did all Apache warriors carry the same weapons and volume of weapons?

Photos
I just don't think there are good representations of warriors in photos, as most all are definitely prop-scenes. That said, I don't think photos are a great place to do research.

Western writers
From my research, there are only a few recorded accounts of great detail of how Apache warriors killed their enemy.  The most active writings about Apache occurred during the Apache Wars, well after pistols, long knives, and rifles were acquired by Apache. Writers did record use of modern weapons and included spear and bow tactics, which agrees with Geronimos' accounts.

I say few, because there were rarely any survivors, that is fact that they were very brutal. Geronimo talks about this in his autobiography, sparing no one.  Also, if a story did somehow get relayed, it was probably romanticized and spun to circumvent the fear of Apache by settlers for the sake of the US gvt.  Reporting "killed by knife wound" without details, was is a stabbing, slashing or thrown knife? 

There are also little mention of bolas, throwing sticks, or man traps being used by Apache, but there is tribal evidence these hunting tools/tactics were used as weapons of war at some point in time or another, as their uses are still practiced today.

Tribal oral history
So maybe tribal story telling is a great place to start, from the stories told in oral history, which is supposed to be unchanged due to strict codes and ethics embraced by the story tellers. I think Snake mentions that these stories and skills were passed down through family, and this is exactly in line with everything we know about the Apache with regards to other aspects of their life...cooking, medicine, religion, and so on.  I know that we know very little about most tribes to this day, in fact, a good 1/8 of North American tribes and their ways completely wiped off the face of the planet.  Gone. History erased untold truths.


Specialization among warriors
 My research shows that each warrior was unique in both tactics and weapon choice, just like any other tribe. Then you had classes within the warrior bands, upper, mid, lower.  Then the rifle and pistol were adopted, replacing many primitive weapons.  So there was so much variability, that to answer how often multiple throwing knives were carried becomes a hard question.   Snakes comment about carrying multiple knives on the show, he states "if Apache could carry 10 knives he would"...his comment is interpreted by me...that if a warrior was very skilled at knife throwing and the particular mission required stealth in close, he'd carry a few throwing knives and use them.  Throwing knives could be carried on belt, around neck, in legging mocassins.  Could a long knife be thrown as well as a last resort, yes.

Other ancient projectiles and war
We know from history that ancient Chinese had throwing weapons, so did the Vikings.  Chinese used throwing knives, stars, darts.  Vikings threw axes.  American Indians, including Apache, threw weapons as well.

Here is are some quotes to ponder:

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http://www.indians.org/articles/throwing-knives.html

Native American used instruments such as throwing knives to fight in their battles.  When Europeans arrived, the Native American Indians tried unsuccessfully, to use these throwing knives against the Europeans invasion into their territory. Warfare was not just a physical experience for the Native American tribes but also viewed as a spiritual experience. The killing of an enemy warrior was considered to be the least important part of battle. When Native American Indians fought with enemy Indian tribes their favorite weapons were throwing knives or tomahawks.

Some of the Indian fighting styles can be thought of today as forms of guerrilla warfare. For years, Fighting between the Europeans and Indians which took place over decades were in the end devastating for the Native Americans. The use of  throwing knives was thought to be especially cruel by Europeans and other’s that fought the Indians.

When horses were introduced to the Native American Indians, they became excellent mounted warriors. The introduction of the horse had a big impact on Native American cultures in the Great Plains of North America and was important to the skill of throwing knives. This new mode of transportation made it possible for some tribes to greatly expand their territories. The United States military fought with the Native American tribes which helped the US learn about the fighting skills of the tribes.

War chiefs were usually chosen to lead war parties because they had proven themselves in prior conflicts. Native American Indian's weapons of war not only included throwing knives but included clubs, hatchets, bows and arrows, lances, and sticks. Later they would become marksmen with guns. War parties used the element of surprise as one of their main weapons, as well as a concentrated force. If by chance they were outnumbered, retreating was not a dishonor. Retreat was a strategic move, often used to trick the enemy. Native American Indian warriors also made every attempt to remove their wounded from the field of battle and to recover their dead. The enemy dead were sometimes buried or left in the fields for the enemy to claim.


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Wickepedia -knife throwing

Although it was popularized in America in the late 19th century by traveling acts such as the Barnum & Bailey Circus, the history of knife throwing dates much further back. The art of knife throwing was first used in martial arts or hunting applications. It has been incorporated into the martial disciplines of the Japanese as well as some African and Native American tribes. In such cases, throwing a weapon when fighting is generally thought of as a risk. If unsuccessful it can leave the thrower without a weapon. However, many warriors traditionally carried two or more weapons at the same time.

----------------------


During warfare, Indians used the throwing knives to defend themselves against invaders and enemies. This was a brilliant and radical development in self defense, as they didn't have to come close to the enemy in battle. The knives could be used to accurately pin a target from up to thirty feet away, allowing the Indians the opportunity to remain hidden while defending themselves, instead of putting their life in a line of danger. The knives were also used for practical purposes like breaking open hard shells on food such as coconut and melons.  Although the throwing knives are no longer used in war, their legends continue and they are frequently used for training purposes in the military and police force.
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2009, 12:23:11 AM »

In fact Sayocs were laughed right out of  some FMA circles for advocating their multiple knife and training belt tactics. 

Maybe other people would like to chime in on this since I have people trying to school me on the subject, Does anyone advocate the carry of more than one or two knives?

Could you please elaborate on your facts? What FMA circles are you talking about besides the ones who already had an issue with practically all FMA / knife systems that do not train in their style?

The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like.


This is actually for Dwight. Bryan is using the term comic book illustrator because ODDLY enough, he seems to think that one lone Sayoc instructor who works in comics professionally dictates the curriculum and training methods. We have MULTIPLE lawyers, doctors, LEOs, military, etc. as members and instructors. Bryan's misrepresentation of how Sayoc evolved is grossly offpoint. The Sayocs have a family system. One of the instructors in this system (myself) does not come up with the core principles or innovations of the whole group/family.

I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.

This is another misrepresentation of basic Sayoc training principles. The Sayoc Rig is a TRAINING rig. It is not something one carries in real life. It merely indicates placement of blades on various locations so that the student can figure out for themselves the best and quickest way they can deploy their blade. Also, once you know where people can deploy their blades, you can actually train to work off of those pre-deploy action chains. Otherwise, this is like saying boxers carry focus mitts into the ring when they fight .

So you won't even see a Sayoc guy wearing a live blade rig because that's not what's it for.

Of course, the aformentioned Sayocs wanted a pint of blood, a tattoo, some 1-3 years and $5,000 for a basic instructorship:odd people and curious people went to them at first, and then their business plan was apparently ...suicidal.
Hock

Hock -- I am not sure where you are getting your info about Sayoc but what do you mean by business plan going suicidal? Sayoc was just the cover story in last month's BLADE magazine, also in TACTICAL KNIVES (Sayoc- Daniel Winkler Tomahawk), and we have numerous dvds in the works. Our seminars are growing across the globe now. Sayoc seminars were just held in the west coast, Greece, Puerto Rico and even Russia the past month. You may not be aware because numerous Sayoc full instructors are now the ones teaching them.

We're busier than ever! We just don't hit the forums so much these days so that may be why you are getting that impression.

As per the tattoo, some individuals like getting tattoos for inspiration or pride -- some don't like tats --- there's plenty of Sayoc instructors who have been with Sayoc for over 15 years and do not have one.

As for blood... we want a gallon not a pint. :D

--Rafael--









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Crafty

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2009, 12:42:03 AM »

Sun Hemlet whats so different about sayoc training methods compared to other fma systems i been to a sayoc seminar and a hock seminar the experience i had was hocks was nearly 9 months ago and i can still remember everything.The sayoc seminar i didnt pick up much but tom kier was a nice guy and amazing martial artist. :-\
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2009, 08:53:07 AM »

Sun Hemlet whats so different about sayoc training methods compared to other fma systems i been to a sayoc seminar and a hock seminar the experience i had was hocks was nearly 9 months ago and i can still remember everything.The sayoc seminar i didnt pick up much but tom kier was a nice guy and amazing martial artist. :-\

Hi Crafty,

I can elaborate more but perhaps on a separate thread since this is about Apache knife fighting. However, everyone learns differently and people gravitate to the style of teaching and methods they like.

If you have an instructor(s) you can learn from better --- then that is the core goal for everyone.

If Hock is someone you learn from quickest then I wouldn't try and convince you why Sayoc works for others. Now that too may be a bad business plan, but we think students can learn from whomever they want. Even from several systems simultaneously. The main goal is to produce quality guys and as you stated Tom Kier is amazing -- so Sayoc certainly worked for him.

---

On a separate note but more to the thread topic. If anyone wants to read a good source on Apache and Filipinos using blades in battle, then pick up the book by Cornelius Smith. He was a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient and fought  both Apaches and Filipinos in the late 1800's and turn of the century. He wrote extensively about his experiences with other tribes as well like the Lakota.

--Rafael--
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Crafty

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2009, 10:08:48 AM »

 8) thanks
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2009, 12:57:03 PM »



-Rafael- Start a new thread if you want to send up smoke signals promoting Sayoc Kali.
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2009, 06:50:23 AM »



-Rafael- Start a new thread if you want to send up smoke signals promoting Sayoc Kali.

You do a better job for me - see your numerous posts prior to my response. In the future just send me an email via sayoc.com whenever you decide to bring up Sayoc in this forum's threads. I can just correct it and then you can call it "promotion"

Thanks buddy.    ;D

---

When facts are distorted, only distorters will have facts




« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 06:58:11 AM by Sun_Helmet »
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