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Author Topic: Apache Knife Fighting Details  (Read 55605 times)

Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2009, 07:07:41 AM »

Back to the Geronimo topic:

Check out the biography of Henry Ware Lawton.

Geronimo was said to personally give credit to Lawton for wearing him down with his pursuit.

Lawton was sent to fight in the Philippines after Geronimo was captured.

In the islands, Lawton was then shot and killed by a Filipino who was coincidentally under the command of Licerio Geronimo.


--Rafael--
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:27:35 AM by Sun_Helmet »
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2009, 10:46:47 AM »

Back to the Geronimo topic:

Check out the biography of Henry Ware Lawton.

Geronimo was said to personally give credit to Lawton for wearing him down with his pursuit.

Lawton was sent to fight in the Philippines after Geronimo was captured.

In the islands, Lawton was then shot and killed by a Filipino who was coincidentally under the command of Licerio Geronimo.


--Rafael--

  What is your point? There is no historical record of Lawton ever killing anyone with a knife. There is no record of Lawton being a eye witness to any Indian or Filipino running around with half a dozen knives. All his fights were firearms and he was later killed by the shot of a rifle from a sharpshooter.
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Hock

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »

Its Just a bit of historical irony. Same "odd" names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licerio_Ger%C3%B3nimo

Hock

Dawg

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2009, 12:18:27 PM »

Fate is not only often a fickle mistress, but an ironic one as well. I found that particular historical tidbit rather humorous! ;D

Unfortunately, it'll be tossed in with the rest of the historical trivia stored in my damaged, poorly functioning brain cells. Never accessible while playing Trivial Pursuit or Jeopardy (or any other occasion I might actually need it!), but  sure to pop into my consciousness at the very moment I don't need it!

"Honey, what time are we supposed to be at the party?"

"I don't remember...but did you know that ..."

Yep, that'll be another winner. ::)

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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2009, 11:37:46 AM »

Me too Dawg!  The dang brain is swirling with garbage sometimes...oh well.

The branding of names "Apache and Geronimo" never does the fierce people and warrior/shaman any real justice.  But it happens...Licerio Geronimo (was he really in any way like Geronimo?).  Did Licerio Geronimo embrace the kill, pillage, and burn tactics of Geronimo?  Maybe...

But my favorite story is Carlos Hathcock and the "Apache Woman", a vicious VC sniper hunter, who brutally skinned and tortured our men.  Carlos put an end to her antics, saving a lot of lives and morale. 

But what is good is "Apache" and "Geronimo" will always be remembered as warriors defending their homes and land from outside invaders.  I wish Cherokees would have had some more backbone to resist the Trail of Tears, it would've been a different story.  Goes to show you that compliance and trust is not always a good philosophy, and can often end in tragedy (ie holocaust, etc).

Back to Apache, Snake's book is great.  It has many historical facts, Apache culture, quotes from Geronimo, and good knife training.  Snake properly orders knife use with "throwing" low on the priority of training in general.  His 5th Rule is to have 2 knives.  Some exercises include using double knives.  The knife carry locations vary from head to toe.  From outline in the book, Snake's knife training is based on very fast and direct lethal slashes to arteries and throat, sentry kills, and stabs to heart etc, no different than what Hock is teaching us. 

I think Snake updated his training methodology to fit the modern weaponry and tactics, but you can clearly see the "animal form" which warriors embraced in the system.  It does not appear to be "made up" by Snake or any other "comic book" instructor.  Nothing cartoonish about "piercing, hacking, sawing, chopping, scraping", it spells certain Death with a capital D.

Thanks Snake for the information!
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An armed citizenry fly their colors, an unarmed citizenry wear their colors.

shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 11:58:13 AM »

I should also add, Geronimo admits that Apache Warriors would brutally disfigure downed and alive enemy, sometimes dismembering their genitals and limbs, skinning and scalping to add the psychological component of their guerrilla tactics.  Screams of the captives could be heard echoing through the mountain valleys.  Having said that, Snake's program includes a variety of sawing, carving, axing moves NOT found in Hock's more civil knife program.  I believe this fact even surpasses the Sayoc Kali system, further differentiating Apache Knife fighting.

I do know that Tom Kier did mention the Filipino jungle fighters used machetes and knives to run thru the enemey line or ambush, where point man kept hacking and moving forward and his unit followed close behind to finish off wounded enemy, like an "assembly line of death", but don't know if they routinely tortured like the Apache did.

I do know that the Japenese and VC used similar close-in tactics as Apache by hiding, waiting for US troops to pass over them, then used sword, knives, machetes, bayonets to fight in close to reduce the fire power effectiveness of US units because in that close the chance of friendly fire was too risky.  Did they adopt this by studying the Apache or Filipinos fighting against US and Spanish?  I suspect they developed their own methods from their own experience.  But it is interesting to see how the close-in ambush with bladed weapons was so effective against such heavy firepower.

Rock-sissors-paper, it is everywhere.
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An armed citizenry fly their colors, an unarmed citizenry wear their colors.

D. McLemore

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2009, 04:02:18 PM »

Hey Hoch.

   I planned to send this private email to you but changed my mind because there might be some others that are interested.

     Snake was in Williamsburg this week getting ready for deployment.  He dropped by last night and we  had dinner.  What a remarkable young man . He is definitely a modern warrior with a myraid of martial skills that I really wish I had.  He has done some very unique things and there is little doubt in my mind that he is a gifted instructor.   We sat down with the partially finished draft on the tomahawk and talked about the warclub section that I've included for this one.  I was glad to find out that I was not totally in 'left field' regarding some of my ideas on the war dance and animal movement.  His ideas really mirror Dr. Van Horne's work with the East Coast tribes. Although his focus is in the Southwest and mine in the East Coast tribes of the 18th & 19th Century we really found a lot in common and I gained some valuable insights into the Indian culture and their oral martial tradition.  I can't wait for him to get back from his tour where we swap more ideas.

All My Best
Dwight
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Hock

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2009, 05:20:12 PM »

I am really so glad you guys met!
And I REALLY wish I was there just to hang out.
You two are totally unique personalities.
We need to do a knife seminar next year, you, me and Snake. Do it when when Snake has annual duty stint there, and force you out of retirement/semi-retirement.

And have nightly pow-wows like the old days...

Hock

D. McLemore

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2009, 06:44:59 PM »

   Yep !  Just like the old days...........Maybe, we'll see what the year holds.  This is my last ISMAC this year on the 10th annisversary so we shall have to see. Again thanks for connecting us up.

All My Best
Dwight
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rasdj

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2009, 08:22:48 AM »

just a quick note since i can't seem to find the appropriate thread.  i got the opportunity this weekend to train with one of senior Instructors with the Redfeather guy.  The instructor Mr. Vargas has other knife training, especially with  Steve Zorn(who posted here many moons ago).  He didn't make any hype of the system being deadly and was very upfront that since there are only so many ways to use a knife there was much overlap with other knife systems.  Also he noted that this was a family system and historic (think traditional MA) and not necessarily tactical w/out modification.
I haven't gotten any of Hock's knife stuff yet so i don't have comparison to what is thought. Here is what I found interesting about Apache Knife Fighting as thought by Mr. Vargas. 
The stance was knife side forward (nothing unique there), knife hand always moving(nothing unique here either), and an emphasis on non-committed strikes(very few kill shots) unless there wasn't an escape route.  It was just an intro so i can't say that's all the system has but I thought I post it here since no else seems to have experienced this particular school's thoughts on the matter.
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I exhort you also to take part in the great combat,  which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly combat.
--Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

Hock

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2009, 03:18:22 PM »

Milldog1776

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2009, 05:47:41 PM »

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Dawg

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2009, 06:55:53 AM »

Yep! That's a keeper!

Thanks, BTW; now I know what to tell my wife and daughter to get me for my birthday! ;D
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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

Adventure

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2009, 02:15:42 PM »

Yep! That's a keeper!

Thanks, BTW; now I know what to tell my wife and daughter to get me for my birthday! ;D


ME TOO.  ;D

Hock

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2011, 10:23:31 PM »

Snake talks about his Tops Knives knife here on film -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1LK98R0pRk

Hock

Snake Blocker

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2011, 08:32:13 PM »

It was great seeing so many people in our knife community at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas, NV.  I met some of Hock's students/instructors and some of my old students and affiliates.  There were knife designers, distributors, collectors, and knife tactics instructors there over a 4 day period.  I recommend everyone attend next year.  It is the world's largest trade show of its kind and you can't see it all in 4 days (it's that big).   It's for military, law enforcement, and anything outdoors related.  It's not opened to the public, so go to their website to find out how to get in for next year.  My Apache Falcon knife was featured at the TOPS knive's booth and it received several positive reveiws. 
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Hock

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2014, 09:58:41 AM »

Interesting to reread....

Also, in quick answer to a Sun Helmet, 2009 entry inside this thread...

"Hock -- I am not sure where you are getting your info about Sayoc but what do you mean by business plan going suicidal? Sayoc was just the cover story in last month's BLADE magazine, also in TACTICAL KNIVES (Sayoc- Daniel Winkler Tomahawk), and we have numerous dvds in the works. Our seminars are growing across the globe now. Sayoc seminars were just held in the west coast, Greece, Puerto Rico and even Russia the past month. You may not be aware because numerous Sayoc full instructors are now the ones teaching them. We're busier than ever! We just don't hit the forums so much these days so that may be why you are getting that impression. "

Okay. Where are they now? 2014? Their business model was "suicidal" and detrimental to growth.

Hock
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