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Author Topic: Head to Head and Knife to Knife  (Read 2756 times)

Bryan Lee

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Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« on: October 13, 2006, 10:44:38 AM »

  This was originaly part of a awnser for 410Indashades poll but I thought the scenario with knife on knife was important enough to get its own place. There are unlimeted scenarios that can be presented so feel free to use your imagination as their are no limets.

Head to Head and Knife to Knife in extreme close qaurters, Less than 5 feet without a exit. Are you prepared for this nightmare?

Head to head and knife to knife is about the least desirable place you ever would want to find yourself in any situation of violance. That is the single reason that sparring with training blades made of wood and foam rubber for a full contact lab is so important. I have yet to see a single person without full contact experiance defeat someone who has experiance sparring by this method, It instantly reveals deadly mistakes. That said I have seen a couple instances of people with a knife fighting background without the sparring aspect correct their mistakes and experiments and become very effective in a matter of minutes using this method. Unless you put yourself in that situation in a controlled environment you will never be able to physically apply what you know or have been trained in a real time environment. Bryan Lee
JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"


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Re: Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 07:29:46 AM »

Head to Head and Knife to Knife in extreme close qaurters, Less than 5 feet without a exit. Are you prepared for this nightmare?

  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC


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Re: Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 08:11:21 AM »

Knife fighting ,as in other aspects of self defense ,relates around who we are fighting and how it came about.

We are,for the most part, not going to encounter someone who has trained  in H2H or weapons use.

We train to deal with the most talented.

In doing H2H we deal with taking on trained fighters,people who do MMA and on and on.

In weapons training we deal with people who train and are skilled in weapons use.
In Reality the thug ,the mugger,the bar fighter is not trained,is not talented,they maybe lucky,but they are not ,for the most part highly skilled.

Mental preparedness for an encounter is the key,how far are you and they willing to go and how fast can you or they flip the switch.

In a threat encounter,the person is using a knife to threaten you to get you to comply,they are not,for the most part prepared to go beyond that.

The Person intent on slasking and stabbing you will not threaten they just go to work,flip the switch and start ripping away.

Which person will we be head to head with?

Do we have the weapon deployed as the attacker who means to kill you does?

If unarmed,as we most likely will be at the point of encounter will we see it?

I have been involved with the ones who brandish a weapon as a threat and have dealt with them with empty hand and improvised weapons methods.

I have seen the ones who go from yelling to weapon and slash and stab, preparation for this encounter is not one I want to be in,as was discussed on the other thread we need time when we see the situation going south to get a weapon or deploy a carried weapon and this takes time,the same time and distance as needed in the Tuller 21-31 foot rule.

I have seen bouncer friends  trying to escort a guy out and then he turned and opened them up just like that.

I have seen an ex Pro football player slashed with a carpet blade and his guts start to come out and yet he fought on with one hand.

I have seen other who were slashed so fast,wide and deep that they no chance to hold anything in and their guts spilled out on the floor.

Train as hard as you like when you face a firearm or a knife,luck is a major factor,because even an irate teen with a blade for the first time may get lucky,especially if they can flip the switch and attack with full intent.

I know I am trained and willing to engage but the outcome is a toss up,as for anyone.

I no longer carry a weapon,so my encounters are all H2H or improvised weapons.

I used to carry two blades,both fixed blades,a K-Bar in my boot and a FAS commando blade in the small of my back.

I was riding on a Bus one day and when I got off I was in a 10 on one encounter and the fight was immediate,no time to get to or draw either weapon,and I sure was more than willing to go my weapons as at least one of the attackers had a knife out to me.

So ,to me,if an encounter is swift,and must be dealt with there and then with no time for gaining space and time to deploy you are crap out of luck,(just as is a Police officer or some one else with a weapon that is at the ready but must be reached,deployed and then engaged),the 21-31 foot rule applies to the time it takes to realize the situation and deploy ANY weapon,not just a holstered firearm.


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Re: Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2006, 03:07:05 PM »

 I agree that the people we will most likely encounter are not the ones who are necessarily trained.  An untrained person with a weapon in his hands is just as hard or harder harder to defend against because he are more unprdictable and the lines of attack aren't always so clear...and precise...Also, like you said, a teen ager with a knife and full committment to an attack is very difficult to deal with.  Some ways to train that I have learned from Hock and my instructor here include things like: 1.Having students throw haymakers and other "wild" shots that peole throw; have one just pull a knife or gun without the other student even knowing he/she has one;  2. watching taped brawls (like clips from sports events and other available footage, etc...), talking to bouncers, law enforcement personnel, (to find out common attacks, weapons, etc...) can help you give you training the reality it needs.  People on the street don't throw perfect punches so we should match our training up to what we are likely to face in self defense if that's what we are teaching/studying.  If you work somewhere like a prison where there is limited space then you should train for that scenario...Train in close isn't a good situation but I believe you can improve your odds by train for a given situation and by training in less than perfect conditions.

Also, given the idea that it takes 21-to 31 feet to detect and respond to an attack/weapons attack...just say a knife...I don't agree that "you are  crap out of luck"...rough situation yes...but to me, crap out of luck means we are resigning ourselves to die/be at the attacker's mercy because we are at a big disadvanatange and I'm not willing to do that.  We can pick up something in the environment or use our empty hand tactics which is whiy they are really important to develop even if you do carry a weapon...


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Re: Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 07:22:58 AM »

ALWAYS cheat EVERYWHERE in a fight.  The only dirty fight is the one you lost!
Cheat in the beginning, cheat in the end, cheat in middle...


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Re: Head to Head and Knife to Knife
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2006, 07:26:39 AM »

Hi Crane,
My remark that if an incident occurs in 21 feet or less and we did not PRE Deploy the weapon,that we are "Crap out of Luck" refers to being able to go head to head with weapon to weapon (blade to blade, as in the title of this thread),NOT that we are completely out of luck in survival mode,as we are never out of luck until we are No Longer able to fight on.

All the Best