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Author Topic: Do bullets knock you down?  (Read 9470 times)

usks1

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Do bullets knock you down?
« on: July 29, 2007, 01:08:07 PM »

I was gonna post this on the old thread about the effect of a bullet on the human body in regards to if it just goes right thru... Knocks you down... Or whatever... But I couldn't find it.

I was discussing this with Hock a couple of weeks ago, and around a year or so ago I was doing some tactical shooting with a buddy of mine..

During this portion of the exercise we drew and began to fire while moving toward the target..  We started at about 25 yards away or so from the target, and the goal was to be done with the first clip in as few steps as possible, find cover, reload and shoot some more..

Well a few steps into this drill using my beloved .40 Glock Model 23 I felt what was the equivalent of a 1" rattan stick across the thigh.... ( yep I have taken enough of those to know what it feels like.. )

It dropped me to my knee and I looked down and sure enough I had took a richochet on the thigh just above the knee. ( Still got the slug... I keep it in my office at the school ).

I don't know if it was the force of the round, the square root of Newtons law or whatever, but I can tell you it dropped me to 1 knee.

I would say it was probably a psychological thing or a nervous system thing, more than an impact thing, but none the less that is how it played out..

Just thought I would post this after talking with Hock about the subject of what happens when we get shot...

But FYI..... All weekend long I took airsoft rounds... And I live to tell the tale..  8)

Dean.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 02:30:33 PM by usks1 »
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cgonzales

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 01:39:20 PM »

for the record i was in a different county at the time. so it wasnt me who shot dean. but i have seen the wound and the bullet can you beleave he pulled it out of his leg by himself. the dude is too cool.
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usks1

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 02:05:29 PM »

for the record i was in a different county at the time. so it wasnt me who shot dean. but i have seen the wound and the bullet can you beleave he pulled it out of his leg by himself. the dude is too cool.

Yea bro... You don't get credit for this Darwin incident... It was your bald white brother from another mother...

But you probably had something to do with the thinking up of that damn drill at some point...  :o

What are friends for... ;)
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usks1

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 02:17:27 PM »

Critter cat...

You have taken a few pieces of lead and have some good stories on this subject too...

What effect did getting shot have on you? Lay some of them stories on the post brother.. You have some good ones...

Asta la Pasta

Dean

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usks1

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 02:27:43 PM »

Also on this subject.. I don't have any experience shooting humans... ( as far as anyone knows ).. ;)

But from years of hunting antelope / white tail / mule deer / elk... etc... I have seen varying reactions.

I have dropped a 1/4+ ton bull elk with 1 shot... Didn't even move, just dropped.

I have shot a mature doe white tail and it ran about 1/8 mile and then dropped. Just this year.

Last year within 2 hours I shot 2 deer... 1 of them dropped where it stood, and the other I shot from about 100 yards out, and it jumped... ran right past my stand about another 50 yards, then turned and ran back within 50 feet from my stand and dropped... The first one I missed the heart but it was only about 20 yards away so the impact from the .308 probably just knocked it on it's ass.

The 2nd one went right thru the heart and he ran over 200 yards before dropping...

Just some more food for thought.

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cgonzales

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 05:22:31 PM »

i try to forget all those unfortunate incedents. but the last one was a 12 ga. buck shot pellet (30 cal) that caught me in the chin the rest went around my head, i thought someone had punched me in the face took awhile till someone said "OH MY GOD HES BEEN SHOT!" then i knew something was wrong.the lead is still in my jaw bone and i cut myself shaving on the scar all the time. didnt knock me down or spin me around but it stoped me in my tracks wondering where the guy was that hit me.
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loyalonehk

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 11:23:13 PM »

I was gonna post this on the old thread about the effect of a bullet on the human body in regards to if it just goes right thru... Knocks you down... Or whatever... But I couldn't find it.

I was discussing this with Hock a couple of weeks ago, and around a year or so ago I was doing some tactical shooting with a buddy of mine..

During this portion of the exercise we drew and began to fire while moving toward the target..  We started at about 25 yards away or so from the target, and the goal was to be done with the first clip in as few steps as possible, find cover, reload and shoot some more..

Well a few steps into this drill using my beloved .40 Glock Model 23 I felt what was the equivalent of a 1" rattan stick across the thigh.... ( yep I have taken enough of those to know what it feels like.. )

It dropped me to my knee and I looked down and sure enough I had took a richochet on the thigh just above the knee. ( Still got the slug... I keep it in my office at the school ).

I don't know if it was the force of the round, the square root of Newtons law or whatever, but I can tell you it dropped me to 1 knee.

I would say it was probably a psychological thing or a nervous system thing, more than an impact thing, but none the less that is how it played out..

Just thought I would post this after talking with Hock about the subject of what happens when we get shot...

But FYI..... All weekend long I took airsoft rounds... And I live to tell the tale..  8)

Dean.

Good times...   ;)

Ricochet's are no joke.  Never been hit by a live round, but have treated a few and seen a couple.  The closest ricothet is one that actually hit one of my students to be - at the time he was my Plt SGT.  Chayse took a nice piece to the face from a 5.56 - yep friendly ricochet during a stress shoot.  Left him a nice scar on his right cheek (facial).  He didnt drop, just wiped his face as if he had been stung and found blood.  Lucky one...  But the best one was a Marine, during an operation while he was on foot patrol and was hit by an RPG.  The RPG hit his M4 (carried in low ready) and tore off his left thumb also bending the rifle.  Yes, it knocked him on his ass but the round bounced off him and detonated when it impacted the wall to his right.  Can you believe the Marine did nothing but bitch about loosing his thumb....  Count your blessings I say...   :o ::)

If I can track down the pic from our STP I'll post it for ya.  Here is one for conversation...  40mm round from a MK19 - ouch!

Pic will be remove in a couple days.





« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 11:37:26 PM by loyalonehk »
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 11:31:55 AM »

Most of the information I take to heart on this subject comes from the experiance of bear hunters in Alaska where I lived a few years and still call home although I'm no longer living there for now.

 The question is one of those multiple answer questions. The biggest factor is how active or how much adrenaline is pumping through something when it gets hit. There are many bear kills that were one shot matters where a bear stumbled into a camp and was shot with a 44 magnum and just fell over dead. There are also many incidents where bears were shot multiple times and still kept coming.  In most of those cases there was some contact either visually or physically with the bear prior to it being shot that raised its awareness making it desensitized to what was happening till pathology took over and it bled out,"The brain no longer had oxygen to live".

  In the most recent episode, I received a phone call from a friend it told me he had just killed another bear. His dog was barking in the cabin at 3 am and there was plenty of light outside as it took place in July in Alaska. He got up and saw a 300 pound plus black bear on the porch and when it saw him it ran around the house. At that point he went around to look out the window only to see the bears head pop up as knocked of the screen like it was coming in. He drew and fired from less than 5 feet shooting through the glass and knocking it to the ground. At that point he looked out the window and realized he had broken its neck as it was biting itself but couldn't move its legs.  He then leaned out and shot it one time through the ear and called the neighbors to come and get the meat, he kept the hide which had no rubs and had 4 inch hair.

  The point being in that case it knocked the bear down because it broke the bears back. There are many factors involved in what I refer to as the physical part of the kill, Structural would also be a usable term. If you shoot anything standing on its legs in the leg hitting bone or nerves it physically has to go down, no amount of adrenalin can override nerve damage or disconnection or a bone fracture that will no longer structurally support the upper body. This is the same for the entire system of nerves connected to the spine then the spine itself onto the brain.

  There are two factors going on with the brain that make anything go down. The first is electrical interruption better known as concussion. This is your basic knockout which can happen in boxing or from a shooting. The other is just instant death from a head shot. What actually causes death is a entirely separate subject but it will cause a knock down.

  So in conclusion there are things that have to knock something down, the physical part. Then there are many variables that may knock something down like a chest wound that initially knocks the air out of something, hope this is helpful anyway.
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threegun

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 02:55:08 PM »

A bullet alone cannot knock you down........Newtones law applies here. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For a bullet to have the momentum to knock down a 200 pound man it would kick so hard at firing that it would knock down a 200 pound shooter.

Pain, shock, central nervous system hits, broken bones, etc. cause you to fall.
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 04:00:07 PM »

But if a bullet hits a standing man and he falls.
The bullet knocked him down.
Without the bullet he would not fall.

Hock

usks1

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 05:07:00 PM »

But if a bullet hits a standing man and he falls.
The bullet knocked him down.
Without the bullet he would not fall.

Hock


Kinda like a well placed punch or kick....

I may not be able to deliver a punch that can move a 200lb stationary bag 5 - 10 feet across the floor..
But if I hit a 200lb man on the button he may end up 5 feet away from me on his ass....

I probably can't deliver a kick that will knock a 200lb stationary bag 5 - 10 feet across the floor, but if I nail you with a good kick to the body, groin or knee.. you will move..

Does it matter if it is pain, shock, or whatever as long as it happens?

Science is science.... results are results....

Just my ole plug nickle...........

Dean

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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 06:49:09 PM »

Newtones law applies here. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Does Newton's law REALLY apply in a flesh and blood gunfight? REALLY? I don't thing think Newton's law applies here. Too many variables than cold facts on paper.

For a bullet to have the momentum to knock down a 200 pound man it would kick so hard at firing that it would knock down a 200 pound shooter

That would be a 200 pound, lifeless, dead weight dummy that wouldn't move. Put a nervous system in that dummy and see what  happens. Put a lit match on your fingertip, see how fast and furorius your hand moves away and then run the numbers on that one. Lifeless dummy hand. Nothing. Your hand? More force that the igniting match. Run the math on that?

Anyway, the next time my knee cap is shattered into bits, or my throat is ripped open by a round, or I am shot in the eye and I am laying on the ground looking at the stars, I will try to take solace in the wonder of Newton's Law.

Hock
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 06:54:53 PM by Hock »
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cgonzales

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 05:03:14 PM »

the action of a bullet hitting you has a reaction of leaving a hole.

now about that momentum to knock down a 200lb. man thing. well i have fired a 50 cal sniper rifle and a few single shot 50 cals before and i did not fly into little peices but there is some great footage on the net of real people being hit with these rounds and the reaction is quit spectacular.
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usks1

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 07:26:04 PM »

the action of a bullet hitting you has a reaction of leaving a hole.

now about that momentum to knock down a 200lb. man thing. well i have fired a 50 cal sniper rifle and a few single shot 50 cals before and i did not fly into little peices but there is some great footage on the net of real people being hit with these rounds and the reaction is quit spectacular.

Testify brother... Testify...  ;)
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 09:41:03 AM »

Here is an amazing Iraq combat photo of a soldier shot in the thigh. The round splits his thigh bone and drops him....moves him...

http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/08-07/index.htm

Does makes you wonder, does Newton's equation include slpit thigh bones?

Hock

Kentbob

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 12:08:51 PM »

Quote
Wrapped in a ground fight, Prosser could not pull out his service pistol strapped on his right leg, or get to his knife on his left, because the terrorist—who turned out to be a serious terrorist—had grabbed Prosser’s helmet and pulled it over his eyes and twisted it.


That is an excellent line, which does a lot to illustrate the realities of dirty, mean, and nasty groundfighting with all of your gear on.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2007, 12:20:16 PM »

Here is an amazing Iraq combat photo of a soldier shot in the thigh. The round splits his thigh bone and drops him....moves him...
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/08-07/index.htm
Does makes you wonder, does Newton's equation include slpit thigh bones?

Hock


Greart article and photos.

Ed Stowers

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2007, 02:17:35 PM »

I guess it all comes down to how you define "knocking" someone down.  If you define it as "they hit the ground after being shot," then yes, even small .22 rounds can "knock you down" under that definition.  This could occur for a variety of reasons: the brain stem or spinal cord was disrupted (CNS wound), a bone was struck (structural failure), the subject was off-balance when hit (gravity assist), and/or psychological reaction to being shot.  In this case, the bullet hits and the man (or woman) hits the ground.  If that is what you mean by being "knocked" down, then yes, bullets can do that.

So can arrows, slingshots, spitwads and bumblebees

Another definition that many people use, however, is "kinetic energy knock-down"; i.e., the kinetic force imparted by the arriving bullet literally knocks the person being shot off his or her feet.  This is, in effect,"knock down kinetic power" relative to a non-living, non-thinking hunk of flesh and bone that weighs, oh, about 200 lbs or so.  It eliminates the CNS and psychological elements of shooting living beings and turns it into a physics problem.  In that case, almost no conventional handgun rounds and some rifles will not "knock" the dead weight very far.  They may punch a hole in it, tear it up do damage to it, but really don't kinetically knock the weight very far.  Of course, the bigger the round, the more "knocki-down" power you get in this context.  A .45 ACP probably won't move a dead body too much, but an 88mm shell definiteloy delivers a LOT more kinetic energy and it definitely wil send a body flyingl.  Variables go up and down the scale as velocities and bullet weights vary.

I think the combat-oriented question is not whether or not a "can a bullet knock you down."  I mean, if it can, so what?  If it can't, so what?  How do we use this information?  In the first context, many people do hit the ground after being shot only once, and often pretty much instantly.  This doesn't mean they were "knocked" down by kinetic impact, however.  By the first definition it's a knockdown, but by the second definition it's not. 

There is also a matter of time involved here that must be specified within context.  Does the definition mean "instantly" or several seconds or minutes later?  Obviously, if they go down minutes later, the "knock down" under kinetic criteria did not occur, but even if they go down instantly, kinetic force may not have been the likely cause.

I think the question--if properly focused and accepting either definition--should be "can you count on bullets knocking a person down?"  Again, I'd have to clarify what is meant by "count on," which is this case, you, as the shooter, are you willing to bet your life on the fact that your bullets will absolutely cause the bad guy to hit the dirt every time consistently?

To me, the answer here is a definite NO.  Your shot may or may not "knock" the purp down (depending on the defintion used).  You cannot count on it in either case, however.  There are too many vairables in a gun fight for any absolutes.  Some people go down with a skin scratch, others don't go down instantly even after being shot in the head by a .357 Magnum at point-blank range (there are documented police shootings that verify this).  So, to me, this becomes an academic argument either way at this point.  From a combat perspective, does it even matter?  A more pragmatic question would be "do you shoot the bad guy once or keep shooting him until the threat is neutralized?"  I mean, how it affects your tactics and survival is what is useful.  Not the academic argument.  We hear the same kind of nonsense all the time in the old "one-shot stop" debate.  Interesting perhaps--we all love to debate--but hardly all that useful.

In terms of the academic arguments, I think the common concept being debated has mostly to deal with the Hollywood image of a shotgun blast or .45 slug blowing a guy clean across the room or sending him flying through the air.  Shotguns and .45s just don't do that  That's a fact.  For that kind of "kinetic" effect, yeah, Newton's Laws have to apply.  But for all of the others, like falling to the ground, not necessarily.  Newton's Laws still applly--they just don't apply to the cause.  I don't think the statements that "it doesn't happen" are really so much a matter of short-sightedness as much most folks' iinability to specify the conditions associated with their premises, and then articulate them in a way that that supports their conclusion.
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2007, 02:40:44 PM »

As I have said for years and years now,

              "You simply cannot predict what a punch, a stab, as slash or gun shot will do.

People who think it will always be a little slap on the body, the same that hand hand feels shooting the gun? They are perpetrating wrong doctrine with blinders on.

Hock

threegun

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 05:47:15 AM »

Just as the folks think that their magical caliber will pick someone off his feet and throw them to the ground. Yes a bullet can knock you down through many means but not by it weight and momentum alone.

The soldier was shot in his leg. His support was taken out. I know a guy shot through the leg with a 45 acp that ran like a jack rabbit.

Just look at deer for example. Never have you seen a deer knocked off its feet by the sheer force of the hit. I have seen them run. I have seen them fall over frozen in pain or paralysis or shock. Yes the bullet caused it but not buy its weight or momentum.

Bullets cause a reaction in the body that can cause you to fall. Just like a punch or kick.
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2007, 07:04:35 AM »

Bullets cause a reaction in the body that can cause you to fall. Just like a punch or kick

Which simply means...bullets can move people.
Bullets have also knocked people down in some fashion. Many stories.

Telling people that bullets do not, can not, make people move, based on newton's theory, is incorrect and an incomplete, and misguiding.

Hock
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 05:14:52 PM by Hock »
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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 12:12:03 PM »

This makes the timeless argument about "best caliber" more interesting. For example, many have told me how they would not give up the knock down power of 45 ACP for a 9 mm or 40 S&W. Yet, if knockdowns are really about structural or neurological damage in most cases, would it not make more sense to use a smaller round and get more chances at getting that hit in the right place? Then again, a bigger hole is more likely to hit that golden spot than a smaller hole, shot for shot. The simple analyses I have seen in many magazines simply do not address the complex interaction of projectile and target.
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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 08:17:42 PM »

As I have said for years and years now,

              "You simply cannot predict what a punch, a stab, as slash or gun shot will do.

People who think it will always be a little slap on the body, the same that hand hand feels shooting the gun? They are perpetrating wrong doctrine with blinders on.

Hock

  I just had a paramedic argue that "shock" plays a major factor in a knife fight. I guess he is right since paramedics show up 10 minutes or more after its all over.

  His idea is that a slash even on the arms will send a cut victim into shock, I wouldn't count on it but anything is possible. Most recently there was a story of a man on a motorcycle hitting a barrier and amputating his lower leg, miles down the road I guess he tried to hit the break and ughhh?
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2007, 07:47:10 AM »

Reading a Vietnam War memoir and a guy talks about a fellow troop being shot in the helmet. The troop said "it knocked the life out of me," and he "saw his toes flip up in front of his face" then blacked out. He went almost upside down and the helmet was destroyed, almost split in half. The guy immediately recovered and appeared unhurt.

BUT..the writer says the man died back in the states years later from a brain aneurysm. No one ever made evidence of a connection.

I know that as we read history of all sorts we will find ALL KINDS of things happening to shooting victims, from no response to great reponse. I am trying to collect these memiors for an article on the subject.

The article/essay on my blog now, (August 2007) on the startle rsponse, I think, describes why some close quarter bodies move when being shot because the sheer explosion alone starts the body in some jerking motion. Then the bullets hits this body in motion.

Hock
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 05:37:21 AM by Hock »
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redcap

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2007, 03:47:49 AM »


  I just had a paramedic argue that "shock" plays a major factor in a knife fight. I guess he is right since paramedics show up 10 minutes or more after its all over.

  His idea is that a slash even on the arms will send a cut victim into shock, I wouldn't count on it but anything is possible. Most recently there was a story of a man on a motorcycle hitting a barrier and amputating his lower leg, miles down the road I guess he tried to hit the break and ughhh?
Excellent point Bryan!  I agree the delay has a lot to do with it.  I attended a call at a cockpit in the Philippines with the local cops (ride along) and while they were interviewing one of the fighters, he just went white as a sheet and sat down on the spot! He had taken a minor stab to the stomach during the fight and was holding the wound area  but not making a big deal of things.  We arrived maybe 20 minutes after he was stabbed and up until then he was well enough to fight off the other bloke (who ran away and was never caught as far as I know) and wait for the cops.  The police put him in a trisikad and rushed him to the local general hospital where he died an hour later.  The doctor treating him made a mention that he died of shock caused by the stab and internal bleeding, which by themselves were not enough to do him in.  Maybe I need to get him to define his idea of shock?  Cheers Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

threegun

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2007, 11:07:18 AM »

Hock, We disagree I guess. If the answer to this question is yes than everyone would be knocked down after being shot.  If a bullet is capable of knocking someone down why do many not fall?
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2007, 01:33:06 PM »

I think you say bullets don't knock people down...I assume never, ever? Never?

I say, bullets can do anything, not knock people down AND sometimes knock people down. I just think that' is such no-brainer and proven time and time again, story after story.

Hock

threegun

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2007, 02:03:37 PM »

I think when someone says a bullet can knock you down that they mean the momentum of the projectile.

We agree......I think LOL.
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Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2007, 02:08:18 PM »

We agree......I think LOL.

I think so,

Hock

Hock

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Re: Do bullets knock you down?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2007, 05:38:04 AM »

Another moving story from the 1970s in California...

"I approached the car just as one of the rear passengers started to get out. I ordered him to stop as he took about ten steps away from the car. He was now in complete darkness as I approached to pat him down. I was watching the car and watching him as I came within arm's reach. I started to pat him down, when he suddenly turned, faced me and shot me in the stomach with a Ruger .41-caliber Magnum revolver.

Just before the gun exploded in front of me, every sense in my body told me something was going very wrong. The bullet hit me one inch above the belly button.

I was wearing one of the original bullet-proof vests made, but it was not certified to stop that large of a round. The bullet took the vest into my stomach, leaving me with a bullet hole about the size of a quarter.

The gunshot knocked me back about half a step as I pulled my own gun and started shooting. Because we were so close to each other, it was hard for either one of us to miss.

I hit him with three rounds. He fell to the ground as I ran back to my unit.

I screamed into the walkie-talkie that I had been shot when I heard the second volley of rounds coming from him. I returned fire and emptied the last three rounds of my six-shot revolver. Likewise, the gang member emptied his gun and eventually surrendered to backup officers arriving in the area."


Now, did the oficer actually, instinctively step back/escape in the instant of the gun barrel? With his quick draw, body movement did this include a back step anyway? Causing the actual movement he reports? Not sure he would even know.

This is typical dissection of events problem...
Hock
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