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[Bryant]

I have been exposed to variety of martial arts but the majority of my study has been in Aikido and Wing Chun, in every art I have been exposed to I have seen things I like and things I don't like, thing that I perceive in my personal opinion as weaknesses. I think every art has at least one chink in it's armor. Which is why I like Hock's philosophy of solutions first , systems second. Mind you I am not poopooing on these arts , I love them both. it's just these are the two I have the most experience with and thus they are the easiest for me to talk about concerning this topic.


Aikido

Origin: Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, unarmed combatives for samurai, suitable for fighting armored opponents since it focused on the joints
Primary Method: throws, joint locks and immobilizations, redirection of energy , nimble foot work
Weakness : most styles do not train to deal with "hit and retract" style of attacks, most instructors have either excluded or de-emphasized atemi. Many aikido techniques are ineffective unless atemi is applied first


Ving Tsun (Wing Chun)

Origin: Southern Shaolin martial art created as a method to quickly develop & train fighters who could deal with opponents trained in the other kung fu systems that were popular at that time
Primary Method: continuous strikes  to anatomical weak points, low line kicking , temporary immobilization for the purpose of follow up strikes
Weakness: a lack of versatility, although based on sound principles , wing chun attempts to apply a narrow range of techniques to a broad range of circumstances, wing chun would benefit from a broader range of techniques based on the same scientific principles on which the art was founded

having trained in both these arts, I have found they complement each other pretty decently and certain aspects of one art compensate for weaknesses in the other

anyone care to share their experiences on this topic of the inherent weaknesses in every system and the benefits of being a hybrid practitioner

-B.

[whitewolf]

B-are you studying these arts for compition or street-makes a difference dont you think?
   I have stopped studying particular forms of arts and trying to adopt to what is good for me on the street by taking the best from different arts and learning to act instead of reacting to situations-hope that makes sense-whitewolf

[Bryant]

I speaking in terms of combat / self defense
Actually what I am trying to get at is that every martial art evolved within a very specific cultural context for a specific set of circumstances, for that reason both the art and the practicioner of the art must adapt and change as circumstances change, people dont fight the way they used to fight 500 hundred years ago or more
It may be best to establish a firm foundation in the art that suits you best and then do your "graduate work" in systems that address situations that your core art does not

[whitewolf]

Bryant-we are on the same  track-this past few years i have been to BJJ/Muy tai/Vale Tudo/KM/etc etc i try to  take the best  for  me from each .As I am older than most guys on the forum I need to practise on quick reaction to problems and act on it immediately.
So far in a couple of physical altercations I got there first and therefore did not get hurt.
As you say it is different than a long time ago-stay  safe whitewolf

[oz man]

the jumping spinning heel kick is a good example of that bryant, designed in fuedal times to unseat a rider from his horse. totally irrelavant now unless you're j.c. van damme and have $5.00 to spend on a movie. It is amazing though how many instructors will stick to these indoctrinated has-been techniques and sell them as the ultimate defence and key to enlightenment!! The upside is that it gives anyone with brains enough to question that an upper hand on the reality of cqc.

[whitewolf]

Hello Oz man-ok -sorry but that is the first time i  ever heard of a spinning back  heel kick to knock some one off his horse-are you serious???/A horse is a least 6 feet high with the rider addng a few more feet  and probably armed-maybe you should think this one over a  little-have you rode the yellow bus yet? whitewolf   

[grlaun]

Its also important to realize that jumping spinning kicks - if used correctly they can be phenomanal body coordination exercises.  The practically of using them in real encounter is laughable but in class usage will develop undeveloped potential and skill.  But other than exercises they are useless.

White wolf - he probably was referring to the jumping version.

In all other aspects oz man is correct.

[whitewolf]

Grlaun-thanks for the response-as for me i am not even attempting to try a flying sppining heel kick anywhere-probably would wind up with a headache- ; Oz man-good luck  with the kick if you can do  it-whitewolf

[Dawg]

I agree with Rawhide 100%! I also believe that performing kicks with jumping, spinning and even the different "crescent" style movements helps with keeping the hips flexible along with the benefits of increased coordination. Although I don't advocate these types of kicks for self-defense purposes, I use them while sparring to demonstrate the variety of angles of attack that are possible.
Besides, you might have to jump over a chair, a fallen opponent, or some other obstacle during a fight; might as well be able to kick the snot out of someone while you're at it !
C'mon, Whitewolf! You can't tell me a Marine is worried about a little headache ?
I have to agree that each martial art system is flawed in one way or another...they're all developed by humans. No perfect humans = no perfect system. That's what keeps everything so interesting!

[whitewolf]

Hey Dawg-I just got a chance to read the latest- been busy-naw the headache would not bother me -just the bounce off the floor when i  try the flying spinning heel kick-if i was on the horse oz was talking about i  would just give the kicker a fat smack on the heel when he came flying around-OR-as he came up in the air i  would have my horse swing around towards him as as he connected with a 3000 lb horses shoulder he would have more than a headache-which brings me to a serious story-I was in newark NJ and it was a hot summer -i was the security manager for a large complex downtown and their was a group of teens and adults starting to riot near our complex-we had to  go out and insure the gates were closed-as i wound up on the street i was charged by a few of the mob-all of a sudden a mounted Newark PO charges between us and the first rioter was struck by the side of the horse and he flew up in the air and about 5  feet into the bushes-the rest  backed off-if that mounted PO had not been there i would have had more than a headache--true story-stay  safe and semper fi-whitewolf..

[Dawg]

Whitewolf,
Good story! I still like the ones where the bad guys lose.

Truth be told...my jumping spinning heel kick would only enable me to kick someone off a large dog; horses would be out of the question. But, I look soooo pretty doing it!

[oz man]

Those sorts of things are great for fitness ie_ agility, flexibility and even leg speed on lower kicks. Same as nunchaku can be good for working on hand speed and hand eye co-ordination, but certainly not as effective in battle as they may be percieved. But anything that helps is wothwhile!!

There is definitely a place for everything, the trick is to know what is worthwhile for you to practice as an individual, to suit your capabilities

[hessian1]

 
   Hi all,

      Interesting topic and some good responses.  The thing to remember is that most if not all of the arts we have been exposed to from traditional sources are diluted. This has occurred because most where developed in a different era where this systems thrived in their specific combat environments, but few have been street/combat proven continuously since their formalization.  This was Bryant's original insight and a very valid one.
      Next, people are now turning toward taking what they perceive as the best of each system and "pressure testing" it in the cage/ring/mat and while this does have some merit it is still a flawed approach in that it is still mutually agreed rules, preparation, duration, and the undeniable and final factor in all approaches , the practitioner themselves.
      This last factor is why I agree so much with Hock's approach of teach them all options and let them create their own "system" or style ( the very original concept/idea of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do).  As an example from MMA Tim Sylvia can't fight effectively using Joyce Gracie's style nor can Randy Couture fight effectively using Jeff Monson's style. Jim McCaan won't be able to pull off some of Nick Hughes' methods and so on.
       In the end what I'm saying is systems are flawed because time has forced them into cookie cutter approaches due to most instructor's limited experience ( first degree black belt's opening their own schools with three years training have little tie nor exposure to adapting their arts to work best for the student) and the growth of doctrine in the art.

Keep safe and train hard,     Mark H

[Nick Hughes]

Ozman,

I don't want to rain on your parade mate but the jumping kick to knock soldiers of horseback is another one of those urban myths like registering your hands with the police as deadly weapons and pushing nose bones through brains etc.

The average horse is fifteen hands, war steeds were for the most part bigger.  Fifteen hands is approximately five feet tall at the shoulder.  Add a saddle to that and then a rider on the saddle of average height and your jumping seven feet in the air at which point you have to clear the horses head and neck (in your case with a spinning kick) and unseat the rider who's feet are locked in to stirrups and whose knees are hugging the horse.  Ain't gonna happen mate.

If you're up for it, go out to a horse farm one weekend and check out someone sitting in the saddle and visualize pulling it off...you'll quickly see it's bollocks.

yer Uncle Nick

[whitewolf]

Ah Nick you are the man-and Dawg that is great that you would do a flying fucking backward over the shoulder heel kick and take out the guy on the dog-lets shoot the fucker with a trancalizer  gun in his ass-then when he lands jump on his head with a flying stomp heel  kick-it would work  better (hopefully)-yes i do need a shiltz -quickly genltlemen quickly-ok now that i  have stated more here ill go  check on the serious posts whitewolfie (el lobo blanco)

[Tank]

Hey Whitewolf and Dawg,

There is some clarification to be had here. The Dog the Dawg was referring too is a Chihuahua! All of that wasted motion with the jumping and spinning would be useless. Just use that great stomp kick(refer to Uncle Nicky's post) to split the Chihuahua into two pieces and eat him for breakfast. I here they are great protein.

[Dawg]

davesdawg3,
You're just jealous 'cause you have zero vertical lift capabilities!

Back to the original topic:

For self-defense purposes, I think you have a distinct advantage when you've trained in a variety of disciplines. I also think it's an advantage when you've had the opportunity to use these skills in your profession (bouncer, military, police officer, etc.). Nobody has the ability to tell you whats going to work best for you when the crap hits the fan; that's something you'll figure out all by your lonesome. The more you see in a training environment, the less you'll be surprised by something on the street. The more realistic your training is to your specific mission, the greater the likelihood of success.

I enjoy point sparring, but it doesn't really help me on the street.
I enjoy boxing, but it alone doesn't help me on the street.
The same can be said for my kickboxing, BJJ, and now, double-stick training.
But, put all those skill sets together and use them in realistic combat scenarios, simulating situations that are most likely to occur in today's society (and in particular, to you!)...Look out!

One particular style of martial arts just doesn't suit me. I'm interested in all of them and I enjoy learning new stuff all the time. If being a hybrid practitioner turned out to not be a good thing...I'd have to be one anyway!

Wayyy more than my 2 cents,

(The Very Hybrid)
Dawg

[whitewolf]

Wow are your two  guys  dawg and davedawg3 brothers in arms?? Hope so--i agree that the combigning the best of the best of any  art helps on the street-the main thing is not to  freeze and stand there in the headlights like a deer-do  something-or one will be on the ground and not choking someone out but instead on the losing end of the deal-a  long time ago i was advised that "shock" is what is  needed-shock  meaning attack and overrun the opponent-quickly and without hesitation-so he goes in to "shock"-in other words -take him out-hope that makes sense-whitewolfie or el lobow blanco (as Nick has named me)

[Tank]

Yea, we are training partners, and I'm sure I'll pay for the Chihuahua comment during our next sparring session!

In all seriousness, I agree with diversity being the best rule. However, Don't ever allow ourselves to start the belief (As in MMA) that a mixture cures all though. Situational training or as Hock says, Combat Scenarios are best suited for "Actual" fight scenarios not the "Myth of the Duel" standoffs.

I have not had the opportunity for traditional training(Only CQC stuff), but I have had the opportunity to spar those guys that have taken traditional MA. I must say that my eyes were definitely opened to the fact that being "Close Quarters" really screws with the traditional guys and it will win fights. They just don't know how to react with their striking when you close the distance.

Just my thoughts.

Oh yea dawg, I may not have vertical lift but I definitely have those characteristics of a Circus elephant........

[oz man]

Guys
not sure whether you misunderstood my point but ive never believed such a thing was fairdinkum, thats kind of what i was getting at. And yes ive seen horses before, and no i dont stand in my backyard practicing and aspiring to some fantasy martial art moves.
Ive been training with a reality based point of view for some time now, i tried the traditional stuff from the ages of 12-21, never seemed to work out in the world quite as good as it did in the dojo. Suprise, suprise. Cost me a couple of good beatings too, thats why i took the sfc up in 01.

[Karl]

I think the Main Point should be.

What am i trying to achieve with what i got.

If what i have is not sufficient why not?

Lets face it, If i have a Glock 23 and the other Guy has an AK 47, the question should be, do i have to be there. If so what can i do with what i have.

Just my 2 Cents.

I agree that every art has its Weakness, if it works in the Toilets of the 'Bourbon and Beef Steak" Good, if not Modify it or do something else.

As to the spinning back kick, Not Jumping, as i am not that athletic, it works if you got the timing right.

[whitewolf]

Karl-first your points are well taken-now to the big question -Toilets and Beef Steaks -where the hell is  that-Bourbon street in New Oorleans? When i was in New Orleans a few years ago I was not impressed except we found a bar that had pictures of Marine Corps from world war two and Korea-hope that the hurricane did not wreck that bar-stay  safe whitewolf (el lobo blanco)

[Karl]

Sorry Whitewolf,

The 'Bourbon and beef Steak'  Kings Cross, Sydney, Australia.
Worked there for a while as the response team.
They called us the ' Alzheimer Team ', as my partner was 52 and i was 48.
We got the Job done, thou.

Stay safe.

[arnold]

Easy on them little dogs guys. Some, like mine, are highly trained hunter/killers. But let's hear it for Wolfie, who narrowed it all down to it's fine point with one word, "Schlitz". Nothing else is necessary.
Carry on!

[whitewolf]

Well Karl-i am a jerk-sidney i should have known-roo roos right  -Arnold ill have a shiltz any time- and as for the hunter killers-if i ever get to  your  area ill have to  carry bear mace to fight them  off-any place is  better than this  place i am getting tired of dodging the traffic out on these highways in kuwait-last night i am driving downthe highway and this local comes up the highway the wrong way-thought i was going to hit him but he turned off the road-take care and stay  safe gentlemen-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)

[oz man]

Gday Karl, how are you mate?

Long time no see, i think the last time i saw you would have been in melbourne at the instructors course in 2002, quite a while.
Hows everything in sydney going for you? Im up in townsville now and just trying to hunt down someone worth training with, let me know if you know of anyone up here.
Cheers mate

Clem

[Nick Hughes]

Oz man,  I lived in Townsville for a couple of years.  I loved that place.  I was head of security for the Criterion pub (is it still there?) and ran a karate school out of a mate's gym.

I wish I could help with regards to someone that way but I've lost touch with everyone up there.

N

[Bryant]

I'd like to refine this topic and take it in a different direction.
Prior to learning Ving Tsun, I did not have a scientific approach
to my training or a scientific way of thinking about martial arts training
what attracted me to Hock's curriculum was that is seemd to be a modern
expression of what the original intention behind Ving Tsun might have been
and that is to take the best principles and combine them with the best techniques
using a very scientific training methodology that insures spotaneus adaptability and continued growth for the student (development of attributes).
In Ving Tsun the emphasis is...
Attributes > Principles > Techniques

Many who want to learn martial arts become collectors of techniques, specific responses to specific attacks. Learning techniques is a valuable training method, but to be a complete martial artist your study must go beyond that level. If all you have done is memorize technique you may have difficulty knowing what to do if your techniques fail. To have the ability to be fluid, spontaneous, and adaptable you must also study the principles the techniques are based on and the attributes required to make the techniques more likely to be successful.

Some examples of principles

1.Centerline
2.Optimum line of attack
3.Facing
4.Forward pressure
5.Hand replacement

Some examples of attributes

1.Relaxation
2.Coordination
3.Balance
4.Timing
5.Sensitivity

I think the training methodology developed by Hock lends itself to developing fluid adaptable martial artist…

1.Learning tools (Finger, Palm, Fist, etc)
2.Solo command and mastery (repetitive movement, shadow boxing, etc.)
3.Striking (heavy bag, focus mitts, etc.)
4.Skill development drills (hubud, stick & knife patterns, etc.)
5.Combat Scenarios
(cooperative to semi-cooperative exploration of the possibilities)
6.Sparring (uncooperative combat with limitations for safety)

[whitewolf]

Bryant-good direction-your points are valid-i agree that in todays world one cannot stick just to one method (style)-one has to  be flexible-Here is what I have started to practise-After reading up on some of Hocks/Perkins/Geoff Thompsons thoughts I implemented the following for training alone:
I hang the punching bag up and take two  bricks and place on floor in front of  bag-
Striking the bag while standing on the bricks  (not hard)
Then i stand on one brick  only and continue the strikes
I attempt to  correct balance when i  start to  lose it
Then I get off bricks and continue the striking-
Then I do the same thing using elbows-then knees -then holding bag  or chains attempt
going into a judo  throw/sweep-standing on one brick only
I  have  found that only after one session i feel more balanced
One has to be careful you dont fall and hurt a ankle
after this i  go  into endurance/strength training-
comments please-all thoughts from the forum are appreciated-white wolf (el lobo blanco)

I am adding this to  each  session from now on

[Dawg]

Whitewolf,
That's an interesting training routine.
Question: When you perform your strikes standing with one foot on one brick, is the other foot planted on the ground, or is it elevated with all your weight supported by the one foot on the brick?
You say you feel more balanced after just one session? That seems like a winner to me!
When I'm working the heavy bag, I'm usually most concerned with generating power while remaining conscientious of proper body mechanics and efficiency of motion. I also use various drills to try to increase my endurance and improve my use of combinations.
Be a little more specific on how you're performing the "one brick" portion of your routine and I'll give it a go tonight.

Bryant,
Great post!
I also appreciate Hock's scientific approach to training and try to analyze my own training and teaching methods from this perspective.
Under the "principles" heading you listed "hand replacement". I'm unfamiliar with that term and would appreciate some more info on that.