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Author Topic: Anti-dog combatives  (Read 9001 times)

seanross

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Anti-dog combatives
« on: August 21, 2008, 07:45:11 PM »

I got a call today from an older lady whose neighborhood peace has been threatened by two neighbors with pit bulls.  Some people have been menaced and a few neighborhood cats have disappeared.  That might be a good thing but the lady's concern is genuine and legitimate.  In spite of all my training against human assaults, I have been threatened or attacked by dogs more often than by other humans.  The last of these assaults was solved with a canemaster cane.  Fortunately, the dog didn't have the temperament to continue its attack after being whacked across the snout.  Attack breeds might continue the fight and I would need to resort to stick or knife combatives before I could draw my gun.  Worse, it might be on a day I wasn't carrying and I would need to think seriously about how to take a dog out with a knife.

The woman asked about pepper spray.  I told her it was a good start but I would want to have something with more punch if I was seriously concerned about a pit bull clamping on my femoral artery.  That said, I wonder how I would go about training on how to draw my carry gun fighting off the intense pain and fear I would experience while a vicious animal was shredding a major muscle group.  I also wonder how I would go about actually testing any ideas about unarmed, stick, knife or gun combatives vs. dogs.

Any ideas?

And then there is the issue of what to call ones anti-dog combatives.  Doggie style kung-fu comes to mind but it might be misunderstood ;D
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 10:57:15 PM »

I did some of it in the Legion during commando training...Spetnaz are pretty big on it, and there was a documentary (if memory serves) about the SAS (or maybe Marines) on manouevres in Norway and they killed some of the Norwegian K9s who'd been sent into the forest to look for them.

A lot of it is theory and you'll end up typically with two camps arguing it out (just like they do with 9mm v .45) and those two camps are...

a) you can't beat a dog...once it clamps on you're fooked

and

b) beating a dog is easy.

As usual the truth lies in the middle

Sprays do NOT work on all dogs, be very careful counting on that to stop a serious dog attack.

Training against them is going to be difficult.  If you were absolutely serious you might try tracking down a dog training center and putting on a whole bit suit and then work on accessing stuff while the dog is getting his bite on.

here's a clip of some of the French RAID guys and their dog unit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7mhPz2pzdk


Nick
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mleone

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 05:25:13 AM »

Dog Mace the common mail man carries it.
It makes the dog bite itself and scratch itself.
But beware its a high irritant. I got that shit on my hand and it sucked.

It does work quite well, being in the dog business its the only thing i have seen work.
You have to dispense it before being bit.
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whitewolf

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »

I sent this out last year I  think: A fire inspector in Newark met a thief who broke into homes-if their was a dog there and attacked him the thief took out his ice pick and as the dog charged him he ran the ice pick up under the dogs throat so far it came out the top of his head-end of story.....so if you need a expedient wpn carry a ice pick.

whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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Trainer

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 11:36:25 AM »

There is a company is the US that makes k9 spay, its 10 million heat units and it works.... on dogs with low prey drive and who are not really into it.

I was attacked a few months ago, the fucker went afeter my kids and latched onto my face. I beat it with fists and feet. No time for weapons even if i had any on me
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Wardog

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 12:04:54 PM »

 I have a dog. I love my dog. But damn I hate irresponsible dog owners as much as I hate irresponsible parents. I hope they put that dog and it's owner to sleep Trainer.
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Dawg

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 12:19:55 PM »

Trainer,
Stray dogs are a very real threat in the rural area that I live in. I've had some dogs exhibit some threatening behavior, but I have not been attacked, so far. Most of my unfriendly dog encounters have been while I was running, and I've been able to scare them off with an aggressive presence and vocal commands.

As you fought the dog, what techniques seemed to have the most effect on the animal?

Once he latched on to your face, did you continue beating on him or did you do something else to remove him?

I've yet to be seriously bitten, but I've considered just carrying a firearm when I run. I know the fault lies with the owner, not the animal, but that won't mean a hill of beans when it come down to surviving the attack.

I'm sorry to hear about you being attacked, but I'm glad you were able to protect your children. Some folks would've been too scared to do anything. Good to hear you got the best of him!
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Trainer

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 02:53:00 PM »

It was a German shepard. By the time I got to him he was about a foot maybe less away from my boy. I tackled the dog which caught him by surprise. One arm was around his neck when he turned abit latched onto me. The bite grazed my lower lip, went through the upper lip and sepertated the nose from the face. The used extended knuckle strikes to the throat and open hand to the ears. He let go, I stood up swore at him, and started in with the boots to the chest and side.

I think cause he was so focued on his "prey" he was shocked by the sudden appearance of 185 pounds of blind rage decending on him at speed.

I have a vague recolection of trying to find an eye to stick my fingers in
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WTAC

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2008, 07:46:06 PM »

Its called Halt, works much better then Pepper Spray / OC on dogs. Any CN /CS works works much better then Pepper Spray / OC. With dogs your primary target spray area is the  nose. Problem with sprays and dogs is the same problem you have with violent bad guys, it takes time to work.
Aaron

Dog Mace the common mail man carries it.
It makes the dog bite itself and scratch itself.
But beware its a high irritant. I got that shit on my hand and it sucked.

It does work quite well, being in the dog business its the only thing i have seen work.
You have to dispense it before being bit.
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VicMackey

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2008, 08:45:35 PM »

I've been in 3 hostile dog incidents in the past. It seems some owners don't keep them secured. The first involved a pit bull running across the street toward me as I drew my H&K USP .40 from my shoulder rig. It later got struck before I got a chance to shoot it from a Weaver (bladed) stance. It survived though and the idiot owner locked it up this time. My 2nd incident involved a dog trying to show itself off in front of other dogs by trying to aggressively move forward to me. I sprayed 2 bursts of MACE OC and it ran back whimpering and scratching itself. As it recovered, it avoided me. But the 3rd, unfortunately ended up in death. I was loading my trunk with my personal belongings for MLK Day weekend this year. A dog was growling and staring at me. I called the cops and animal control too. The cop showed up and tried to lure the dog into the street. But the dog lost sight of the cop and came back to me and lunged as I shot it with 1-rd. of .40 S&W 135-gr. Federal Hydrashock JHP utilizing an Isosceles/square stance. It whimpered for about 12 sec. until it finally succumbed. It's eyes were wide open and it was a mess too. I had a cold demeanor and then said "Oh my God, what have I done" and I called 911. I then cautiously holstered my weapon, told the dispatch that I was attacked by a dog, had to defend myself due to fear for my, and stated it is injured. I also gave her my description. She asked if a firearm was involved? I answered "yes" and stated I also have a CCW permit. The cop arrived, took the gun, got its serial #, and gave me my gun back. He said no need to raise any alarm. He said it happens and was sympathetic. He just logged the incident and said no charges to be filed. He said what I did was textbook and the right thing. He praised my professional and cooperative demeanor too and treated me as if I'm just another brother officer. Even recommended that I should join the force. After that, our conversation turned to guns and that was it. I had some remorse for what I had done but accepted it as survival, me or the dog. I also experienced what they call "Auditory Exclusion" which the gunfire sounded like a firecracker and I didn't experience any hearing loss or ringing in my ears. This happens when ur under stress and not worry about the gunfire. Cops and soldiers have dealt with it also. Again, I always have my gun when I leave the house even to take out the trash. U never know if it could be some thug or some feral animal u might be running into. Just something I like to share involving 3 dog-related incidents of mine
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
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Wardog

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 10:13:51 PM »

Wow Trainer, that sounds pretty bad. Just a neighbour's pooch or what?

My dog is never off leash. I trusted her for a few days and then she went off in a gallop to visit another dog. Now, no freedom. Thing is she is a big dog but would never attack a person and would probably get killed in a tussle with another dog because she just wants to play and wouldn't realize the other dog wanted to kill her until it was too late.

                                                                     
I hate dogs off leash. Even on sometimes. When taking our dog to a pet store that allows dogs in it , she was almost chewed on by a Shepherd that a guy was bringing in. Who brings a dog that doesn't like other dogs to a pet store. Moron.

Among the worst stories I have heard was from a woman who watched a guy unleash his beast on a beach where it took a run at some kids. Their Golden Retriever intercepted and was ripped to shreds. But this dog was unleashed on purpose by some asshole who got off on it.

  I love animals but my opinion of the general population is pretty low.
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Trainer

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2008, 06:16:58 AM »

The dog's owner claimed that it was chained in his back yard and "must have slipped the chain"

I was never an oil painting to begin with so its just one more scar. The painful bit was the stiching as the shots wouldnt take so it was done with out pain killer. Rabies shot's suck ass too. Anything that poses a threat to my kids is fair game
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Bri Thai

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2008, 02:22:01 PM »

But the 3rd, unfortunately ended up in death. I was loading my trunk with my personal belongings for MLK Day weekend this year. A dog was growling and staring at me. I called the cops and animal control too. The cop showed up and tried to lure the dog into the street. But the dog lost sight of the cop and came back to me and lunged as I shot it with 1-rd. of .40 S&W 135-gr. Federal Hydrashock JHP utilizing an Isosceles/square stance. It whimpered for about 12 sec. until it finally succumbed. It's eyes were wide open and it was a mess too. I had a cold demeanor and then said "Oh my God, what have I done" and I called 911. I then cautiously holstered my weapon, told the dispatch that I was attacked by a dog, had to defend myself due to fear for my, and stated it is injured. I also gave her my description. She asked if a firearm was involved? I answered "yes" and stated I also have a CCW permit. The cop arrived, took the gun, got its serial #, and gave me my gun back. He said no need to raise any alarm. He said it happens and was sympathetic. He just logged the incident and said no charges to be filed. He said what I did was textbook and the right thing. He praised my professional and cooperative demeanor too and treated me as if I'm just another brother officer. Even recommended that I should join the force. After that, our conversation turned to guns and that was it. I had some remorse for what I had done but accepted it as survival, me or the dog. I also experienced what they call "Auditory Exclusion" which the gunfire sounded like a firecracker and I didn't experience any hearing loss or ringing in my ears. This happens when ur under stress and not worry about the gunfire. Cops and soldiers have dealt with it also. Again, I always have my gun when I leave the house even to take out the trash. U never know if it could be some thug or some feral animal u might be running into. Just something I like to share involving 3 dog-related incidents of mine

Fancy calling 911, and them sending out a patrol... when an officer was already there?

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VicMackey

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2008, 03:31:58 PM »

To clear up any confusion, I had a different cop show up after I shot and killed the dog that returned to get at me. Again, it's something I am not proud of but had to do. It was my life or the dog's. I chose to survive.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

seanross

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2008, 04:26:45 PM »

Again, it's something I am not proud of but had to do. It was my life or the dog's. I chose to survive.

I have noticed that our culture values people not being proud or pleased that they defeated an enemy that threatened their survival.  This certainly would not have been a cultural value in say, ancient Rome or Sparta where one probably would have impaled the dog on a pike at your front gate, made a necklace of its teeth as a souvenir and adopted "Vici canum" (i defeated the dog) on the family crest.

This shame or guilt in defeating an enemy is even greater in our culture if the enemy is human.  A person breaks into your home and attempts to kill or rape your wife and steal your stuff.  If you survive, you have to say, "I didn't want to.  I'm sorry I killed him but it was either him or me."  Can you imagine Leonidas, King of Sparta, saying, "Well, we are so sorry we had to kill the Persians, but they invaded our land and left us no choice.  I really regret their loss?" 

Even in the Bible, the phrase is used, "And the Lord delivered ______ into their hands."  We have in the roots of our Judeo-Christian heritage the idea that God could put our enemies in a vulnerable position so we can defend ourselves and that God is glad when people defend themselves against an undeserved attack.

Why is it that we think it is something shameful to have defeated an enemy?  Does this cultural value serve us well?

As for my opinion, whatever it is worth, I am proud and pleased that you, VicMackey, were prepared and able to defeat a vicious animal that threatened you.  Would that more citizens were similarly prepared.  Your actions were those of a free and brave man.
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Adventure

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2008, 09:21:28 AM »

here's a clip of some of the French RAID guys and their dog unit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7mhPz2pzdk


Nick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=related

This is the dog you want after you.



Sean -

Maybe for the dog it is some remorse, because inside we know if the owners had been more responsible the dog would not haved died.

With people.....I don't know.....we train to be perpared if the event ever happens, but are we ever really ready to take life....when we have never done it?


Adventure

VicMackey

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2008, 12:48:17 PM »

Thanks for your  positive compliment Mr. Ross. I appreciate it. You also made a great point there.  :) Any other inputs, either positive or negative, are greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 12:50:16 PM by VicMackey »
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

seanross

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2008, 01:33:01 PM »


Sean -

Maybe for the dog it is some remorse, because inside we know if the owners had been more responsible the dog would not haved died.

With people.....I don't know.....we train to be perpared if the event ever happens, but are we ever really ready to take life....when we have never done it?

Adventure

Hi Adventure,

I certainly think there is room for some remorse for the dead.   But not for the living!  I will celebrate being victorious and alive and competent enough to stay that way.  I will shed not one tear for that.  I can also pity and honor the dead, including those who attacked me.  Warrior cultures generally do just that - they celebrate the victorious living and honor the valiant dead on both sides of the conflict.  It is in the very nature of human existence to take life to preserve and sustain our own. That cannot be avoided.  We consume plant and animal food to sustain ourselves.  We exterminate creatures that would weaken us: microbes, rodents, pests, predators, enemy soldiers and criminals.  We occupy land that did and could sustain other creatures thereby depriving them of life.  There is no way to avoid killing if you want to live.   Recognizing that, I refuse to apologize for my own existence or the foundation on which it rests.

With regards to being prepared to take a life violently, I don't think anyone is ever totally prepared to do that.  However, that isn't substantially different from any previously unexperienced activity.  I don't think I was ready for my first day at school, seeing my daughter leave home or driving a car for the first time.  Some things you just have to experience to be ready for.  Imagine though, if I had prepared for driving a car by telling myself how incompetent I would be and how embarrassed I would be for driving successfully, how stressful the situation would be and how shameful driving a car was.  I probably would have been hospitalizable!

Same with self-defense.  It will be hard enough as it is.  If we continually tell ourselves how shameful it is to take a life in defense of our own, it will be much harder.
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Adventure

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 04:40:38 PM »

good points.

Ed Stowers

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 09:07:00 AM »

Just on a surface level, I think you have four basic dog threats: the domestic dog, the feral dog, the guard dog, and the attack dog.  Domestic dogs are pets that are sometimes aggressive, particularly in their own territory or around their owners, but unless they are big or their killing instinct is triggered they are usually not that dangerous.  Certain breeds, like pit bulls, some Rotweillers, Dobermans and Mastiffs can be far more dangerous than others.  These domestic dogs are usually more of a threat to a child than an adult.  Small children can sometimes trigger attack instincts in some breeds of domestic dog, and some of the breeds that are bad about doing this are surprising, like Golden Retrievers (usually a gentle dog) and chows.  These are usually injury (bite) threats and not usually fatal attacks, though the can be in some instances.

Feral dogs are a whole different matter.  Often they are domestic dogs that have gone wild.  Unlike domestic attacks, these usually involve more than one dog, as feral dogs tend to revert to nature and hunt in packs.  This can be a big problem in rural areas.  Like wolves, these attacks can be fatal and devastating.  Usually these attacks occur against children or other domestic pets and sometimes against livestock.

Guard dogs, of which I consider most of the K-9 variety, are generally trained to take a person to the ground.  They bite and growl, but generally go for a lib like the arm or the leg.  Their purpose is either to chase off an intruder or to take him down so he can be apprehended.  Generally, these dogs are well trained, fairly aggreessive, and do not attack with fatal results.  Usually if you get into it with a guard dog, you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing in the first place.

Attack dogs are a whole different issue.  These dogs are trained to kill.  Because of that, they often are trained not to bark at all, but to attack silently.  Just like as with people, where there are those who talk and those who do, a non-barking dog is a lot scarier than a barking one.  They tend to ignore limbs and go for things like throats and crotches.  Their whole intent is to kill you as quickly and silently as possible.  Most people will never (hopefully) run into one of these dogs, though certain military professionals certainly could, as some militaries train these dogs for "wet" work.

Certainly, with this last case, you don't want a CQB situation; a bullet or arrow would be the preferred method to kill the dog.  But I would argue that is the case with most dog attacks other than the domestic or guard dog.   Most domestics can be controlled or fought off, though not without some injury.  Guard dogs are very hard to fight off without killing them.  Feral and attack dogs generally need to be killed to survie the attack, IMO.

I don't know of any place that teaches anti-canine CQB, but it would certainly be an interestintg subject worth some study on, at least academically, and probably some practical training wouldn't hurt.

I remember a police instructor I had who lived out near Sherman, Texas.  A pack of feral dogs attacked her domestic dog one day in the front yard.  She called her officer husband and he said he was on his way home.  When he got there, she was standing on the porch (they lived in a rural area) with a .30-30 Winchester.  There were eight dead feral dogs lying around the place.  She said the others ran away when she shot the first eight (I am sure she reloaded at least once).  Her solution was perhaps drastic, but I think she made a good call.  My own preference when I was an officer for a dog was to get out my baton.  I hoped if he lunged he'd bite the baton while I pushed him away, but my decision was that if I got bit by a serious sized dog, I was just going to shoot it.  I wasn't there to get attacked by dogs or get injured.  Unless you're armed, however, this could be a real problem.  And these were usually domestic dogs, not feral or attack dogs.

I'll be intererted to see what develops as far as tactics and techniques on this thread.  I think they would be somewhat different for the civilian, the cop, and the soldier.
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 12:43:23 PM »

Hi everyone.
This is a subject that i have looked into.  I did say Hock that i'd get my dad into the act with the dog, but so far, it ain't happened. 
We did discuss and look at it in some real situations though.
some things we reverse engineered.
1. situational, guy running away, or toward, stationary.
2. you can fight the dog and win.
3. best tool so far, for all around personal protection has been for me and my woman, a handheld stungun.
it has the best success against most attacks.  dogs close in fast, though, and so some quickdrawl skills are necessary.
i'm looking for time to study that more.
g.

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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

whitewolf

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Re: Anti-dog combatives
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2008, 08:27:40 AM »

First-Ed  good post-interesting information on types of  dogs

Second-If possible blow the god dam dog away with a shotgun if they attack you or  LOVED ONE.

Third-didnt anyone like my story about the ice pick?? It is true..

Arnold-where the hell are yoou  when needed??
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