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[Hock]

So, in order to be a success in the Filipino Martial Arts, do you think you have to be Filipino? First, we have to define the word success, I guess. But, in general....?

Hock

[Hock]

Well, we are back to the word "success."

By that I mean Dan Inosanto or Remy Presas successful.

Will the public accept a non-filipino system head? Not a neighborhood school guy but a full-blown, traveling road-show?

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

the short answer...Yes.

Bobby Breen in the UK is a prime example.

I think over here Rick Faye is probably another one and yourself of course.


Simonet is carving a name for himself

Vunak got a big following as well...admittedly not pure FMA but if he'd gone in that direction no need to think he wouldn't have enjoyed the same success he did with his other stuff (before blowing it )

We saw the same thing in Japan with the Japanese arts but eventually the gaijin carved out their own niches.

N

[Boar Man]

Hock

I believe so.  Remy was succesful because he worked hard, he was very talented, he presented his material well, and I think the least was that he was filipino.  Because I don't think he ever really made that the focus of any of his teaching really.  He wasn't trying to pass on his cultural heritage in that manner.

Dan Inosanto is the same really.  He worked hard to get where he is, he is very talented as a martial artist, he is a great teacher (presenter) of whatever subject he is covering, but he has tried to educate people about the filipino heritage (culture etc. etc.).  But what was his main claim to fame (in the begining), he was Bruce Lee's close friend.  Not that he was filipino.

As time goes by I believe the race of a person becomes less and his skill, his presentation, and his work ethic will become more important.

One other point.  I don't think anyone will really see the same level of prestige, or the large following such as we have seen in the martial arts leading up to the 90's.  Now there is much more out there from which students can pick and chose what art, style or system they want.  And there are more GMs than before.  There is more competion for students, for exposure, tec. etc. In the past there was a very limited supply of talented masters and GMs, now they are on every cover of any MA mag on the news stand and one can be found in almost any town.  

Mark

[Hock]

Max Pallen, Filipino and GM of Senko Terras and I were eating dinner in California a few years back and he asked me why I had offcially quit teaching Filipino martial Arts. Of course I still do, but in a small, abstract way. You don't see my name W. Hock Hochheim Filipino Master, anywhere, certainly not in my ads or on my webpage.

I told him, "because I am not you Max. I am not a Filipino and the ceiling for success of a non-Filipino teaching Arnis/Kali/Escrima is short." I think to be a real flag-bearer of a Filipino teacher and I mean a REAL one, you have to be Filipino.

The Breens, me, the Rick Fayes, the Kelly Wordens, et al? Siminet? Let me tell you guys. I have seen the big leagues...I have been to the "show." And we ain't it. We have reached new levels of Filipino medocrity. Paul Vunak was famous for Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do first and foremost-back in the day when nobody really knew or could figure out what JKD was. Then he quickly stepped on to RAT-A-TAT-TAT courses.

I believe there is a small market out there looking for Filipino, Filipino system. The rest are middle-men to the real gods. Think about it. Think about the names you all mentioned and who is behind the curtain. The real deal, that's who. The one the people would rather be training with if given the chance.

I think that the very small segment of the market place that seeks Filipino material those hungry for it, they will sometimes accept very imperfect systems and people, just because the main people are Filipino.

Watch Modern Arnis slowly crumble away in the hands on gringos. What is the first thing many did after Remy died?  Hunted until they could find another Filipino, the son, the daughter, the uncle, the guy he cut hair with in Bacalod City. Filipino.

Who is behind the curtain? The Filipino.
Any real success I have had world-wide is because I do not say I teach Filipino martial arts, but rather essence of combat CQC or PAC.  

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

Well Hock mate, you and I disagree.

As I mentioned earlier you could say exactly the same thing about the Japanese and Karate when it came out.  Everyone wanted to train with a Japanese master...guys were landing in Australia having done what we called the Japan Airline Grading i.e. they'd leave Japan a yellow belt, somewhere over the International Date Line they tested and became 3rd dans, they'd land, do a flying side kick on the tarmac and viola, instant following.

Where are they now?  We kicked their arses in every single tournament and fight available and gradually people realized just because they were Asian didn't give them any secret access to anything special.  They were nothing more than 5'4" versions of us, and, once we'd learned their stuff we beat them at them at their own game (hell, they've been doing that to us in the automobile industry for years...nice to see the slipper on the other foot for a change).

Ask the local kid who he wants to train with in the martial arts and it's the Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny Urquidez, Gene LeBell or the Brazilians.  When's the last time you heard of a famous Japanese master since Oyama died?

In time the FMA will end up the same way.  We'll learn their stuff and we'll be better at it than them because we'll inovate and we're bigger.  A good big one will always beat a good little one, and there are those of us that know what happened on the set of "Enter The Dragon" between Bob Wall and an unamed oriental superstar that held up production for 3 days.  (Extra indeed!!!???)

Re Mr Inosanto, I'll probably tread on some toes here but I am very unimpressed.  Now, before everyone has a hissy fit let me tell you what I mean.  The man is extremely good, incredibly knowlegable to the point of being encyclopedic but as a teacher - at least at seminars - I think he sucks....and I have been to a plethora of seminars.

I went to one in Atlanta.  He did some great demonstrations but no explanations.  NOT ONE TIME did he circulate amongst the attendees to give the personal touch or to ensure they had a grasp of the material.  When I asked one of his assistants for some assistance the guy grudgingly came over and spent two seconds with us.  The next time I asked - because no one had even split raw beginners from advanced students doh! - he actually rolled his eyes as he walked over.  You have no idea how close I came to smashing him in the head as he walked over.  He suffered from the delusion because he could twirl sticks and I couldn't that I couldn't fight or was incompetent.  I wanted so bad for that clown to wake up with a group of people doing CPR on his chest it hurt thinking about it.   I bit my tongue (must be calm in my old age) and left at lunch time in disgust.

Not brown nosing here for a bit but I have learned more about the FMA from you Hock than Mr Inosanto - he may know more than you - he may be a better teacher in his school for all I know - but from a seminar view point you shit all over him.  You have the ability to impart the knowledge and from what I saw of him he didn't have a clue.  I think he survives because of his relationship with Bruce Lee and not on his teaching ability.  (And folks teaching ability and knowledge are different things.  There's a lot of talented guys out there who've never groomed a successor because they can't teach anyone else to do what they do)

Wasn't just me who thought that about Dan either...I overheard several other disgruntled people in the dressing room at lunch time.

The only reason the Philipino mystique may linger longer than the Japanese stuff is because without competition we don't get to see that we can actually beat them at their own game like we have in Judo and Karate etc.

putting on my flame proof long johns as I type

[Hock]

There are those who love Dan and those who don't.
Like horse races and resturants...

It seems Japanese systems are more prolific. They are everywhere, like Korean systems. It seems Filipino material is less attractive?

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

Two reasons I see for the proliferation of the Japanese/Korean stuff.

Number one - they market the stuff very aggressively

Number two - People like uniforms, belts and a system whereby they can monitor their progress

My biggest gripe with the FMA stuff was I'd take my girlfriend who'd never picked up a stick in her life and they'd have her doing heaven and earth sinawali first night there.  Next night we'd be doing knife disarms.  Night after that boxing, the next night stick disarms.  It was totally random and totally disorganized and she hated it for that reason.

It's probably what I like about your stuff is that you structured it so each level builds on the level before it.  Makes sense, is easy to teach that way and people can measure their progress.

That's why TMAs will never go away.  Our military, our ROTC, our football, basketball and baseball teams all have uniforms and grade levels.  Our culture is immersed in it so we love uniforms and structure.  Imagine if the superbowl guys turned up to play in 'wife beaters" and shorts like we do at an FMA gig?  People would have a fit.

Of course there are some people who like training that way but if the market is anythign to go by they're in the minority.

I wonder if that's what Remy saw which is why he had the uniforms and the belts?  Never met the guy so I can't say but I bet it had some bearing.

N

[Professor]

Damn, ya'll were busy yesterday while I was in meetings....

At the heart of what's being talked about is the pyramid of leadership, teaching & charisma.   These are the magical three ingredient, when mixed together with the right instinct, that lead to to a soft chair on a tall mountain. 

We know teachers with the skills of a toad and the charisma and looks of a frogs butt. 

Everyone may point out the person's uniquness, however, few will venture lessons.   

I don't know that this is about success - I think the mark is missed.   It's leadership.    A Grandmaster (or any other title) brings with it vision and responsibilty.   Additionally great leaders teach.   Great leaders, who do not teach, don't keep their followers.

Marketing is a very tricky business that involves perception - this is where being Filipino can help in the marketing of a great leader.   New student's are very poor judges of leaders - they just don't know better....give a person a decade and they'll name them on a single hand.


.02

Jeff

[Hock]

Marketing is a very tricky business that involves perception - this is where being Filipino can help in the marketing of a great leader.   

There is a recipe for success in this business. A large ingredient is the magical "Star" power. It is what I call...the launch. 

What "launches" someone? Knowing Bruce Lee? Your friend loans to you or you inherit enough money for full page color ads for two years? What is the launch? Where would some of these people be if Panther didn't sell them in the 1980s" Or Paladin? Those circumstances, in this crowded media world of today will never exist again.

You get real lucky, know someone who knows someone and you are in a movie? Or your system gets mentioned in a movie for the same chance, lucky reasons? At one point Steven Seagal could have filled a baseball stadium. A simple movie, or a TV show, could launch someone.

Now large systems have regular travelers within them. But they are not famous names to you and me. The system launches them. I mean, there are kung fu guys touring out there that teach the chinese spear. We'll never know them.

The coincidence of being launched may have little to do with having or not having talents. Just take a look at who has been launched.

In this case, part of the star ingredient is being Filipino. Anybody else has a serious mountain to climb just to even the playing field with a filipino teaching filipino martial arts. Students will rather opt for the Filipino. Again look at the Remy debacle. They scoured the planet for Filipino replacements while I know the Americans have smarter, more talented people to do the job.


New student's are very poor judges of leaders - they just don't know better....give a person a decade and they'll name them on a single hand.

Hero worship. Cults. People in general have the same problem. In the new book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, he looks at the science of first impressions, and has a chapter on the "Warren G. Harding" error, a man who became President just because he 'looks' presidential. He died within two years of a stroke and is regarded by all the worst president ever.

Anyway, we are not talking hear about the neighborhood school, or even the guy who does a few seminars a year. I am talking about a world-traveling, popular, under-demand, non-Filipino teaching Filipino martial arts.

And...keep in mind. The market share is slim for FMA. I can tell you FMA interest is small and esoteric to begin with. We are all crazy. The real money?  ...is in golf!

Hock

 

   

[Nick Hughes]

Here's something to ponder...

Maybe preference is shown to Philippinos because it's called FMA.

We don't call karate "Japanese Martial Arts" or Kung Fu "Chinese Martial Arts" it's simply called Karate or Kung Fu.

If we started calling FMA "stick and knife" eventually people wouldn't give a rat's A who was teaching it.  I've received bunches of enquiries for "BLAST" which is the acronym I use for "Blade and Stick" training.  You can ask Hock but I don't think I'd pass muster as a Philippino.

N

[argyll]

Interesting issue.  I guess there is an aura of authenticity to be had from studying an indigenous art with a teacher from that culture. When I first started looking into PAC arts I was some what skeptical of teachers of western descent who had exotic sounding titles (no names mentioned).  As I got more familiar with the scene in the U.S., however, national origin became a non-issue and teaching ability and subject matter became the be-all and end-all. 

To the extent that some western teachers in the U.S.  have succeeded by bringing a more “corporate” flavor to the FMA, taking it out of the barrios and into the barracks and training academies, I would define that as success in the FMA, even if the FMA origins are not heavily emphasized. 

Bottom line - what generally attracts me to training in FMA (or any other fighting art) is its utility, not its cultural packaging.

Best regards,
Argyll

[Hock]

As I got more familiar with the scene in the U.S., however, national origin became a non-issue and teaching ability and subject matter became the be-all and end-all.  

Good for you.
You are smart.
Ahh, but if the rest of the world were so smart.


To the extent that some western teachers in the U.S.  have succeeded by bringing a more “corporate” flavor to the FMA, taking it out of the barrios and into the barracks and training academies,

Poor Ernesto Presas of the Negros Island. Talented guy, full of great experience and info. If only he had more of a corporate approach to organizing his seminars, people and travel. It is unlikely he will return to the states because of this. (He is doing quite well in the Netherlands and Germany though. Better support systems)

Guro Dan Inosanto's business-minded wife turned Dan into success, to where he can teach full time, travel more and retire from his high school job, concentrating on more reaching and teaching.

I think the slowly disappearing FMA in the world (the Philippines too) comes from a serious lack of corporate thinking that keeps the art alive and prospering.

When I first started looking into PAC arts I was some what skeptical of teachers of western descent who had exotic sounding titles

Of course, to me, being called anything but Hock makes me feel uncomfortable and pretentious. But, most of these terms just mean "teacher." I have learned that some "title-ing" is critical to business success, so I at least barely mention them in some of the "martial arts/PAC" ads. I do not ever want to be called anyhting but Hock. (Well, if the Queen knighted me? I might take advantage of that. And the Governor of Kentucky can make "Colonels". That would be cool too. Me and Sanders!)

I also learned that my Unarmed Combatives Level 10 had to be called "Black Belt." Teachers need that title to have a business. Even the dumbest citizen knows of and wants a Black Belt teaching them.

I also learned that I can actually outsmart myself! I could strip everything down to its absolute, true, bare, nothingness and wind up with only three elite, sophisticated, intellectual students. I would then have to be in another job full time, teaching and reaching way, way, way less people. And people would still call for information and ask..."Ahhh, you got a black belt in something?"

In for a penny? In for a pound?
Well, maybe in for a penny?  In for a few ounces of this stuff, or not in at all."

Hock

[Hock]

This was a great topic...hope folks will read it over and again and add some newer points...

Hock

[Benjamin Liu]

For the typical American it probably doesn't matter.  Many people I've met don't even know what a Filipino is.  If going after the Filipino-American market it would probably be helpful to be of Filipino descent but other than that I don't really think anyone else cares. 

FMA are still relatively unknown, and many people who take one of the more popular martial arts don't like weapons, so the FMA can seem "too violent" for many people.

It seems Japanese systems are more prolific. They are everywhere, like Korean systems. It seems Filipino material is less attractive?

According to my cousins who until recently lived in the Philippines recently, the most popular martial art over there (at least for formal schools) is Tae Kwon Do.

[Hock]

That all might be a reason why there are no big  names, or real success stories in the USA FMA. When I was in the Philippines, Shotokan and TKD and Aikido were very big. But there was some level of consistent FMA about. I still continue to see a decline of FMA worldwide and there are several factors.

One , younger demographic is hyprotized by UFC, skimming off the available pool of new students usally availble to study and blend into other systems.

Two, "older" students are realizing they want self defense and are more educated about MA systems. Years ago, ignorant people would pull into the neighborhood MA school with no idea what they were getting into. Now, a quick search on the internent explains a lot to a novice. They tend to lean toward the self defense of what they are searching for, like the marketing of Krav, skimming off the available pool of new students for other systems.

Three, the knife mystique of FMA, once a driving, new factor, I think has slowly wearing off.

many people who take one of the more popular martial arts don't like weapons,

Four, there is just not a large interest in sticks, for stick's sake. You have to a certain type of person to be consumed with stick combatives.

Five, there are no real standard bearers with business sense to market the cause. Dan Inosanto took a break from serious traveling here in the USA and some kind of chain was broken.  Remy died. Leo Gaje has come back, but he is just a crazy handful to deal with...many of the "names" are gone or taken a back seat, especially to the new students, skimming off the available pool of new students. I think Filipino GMs coming from overseas create a certain buzz and interest. Some real dogs have showed up over here, especially after Remy's death, and the sheep flock to them.

Five, the reputation of being over-complicated, piles and piles of loose leafs worth, and being so, ON PURPOSE have driven many new students away.You have to a certain type of person to be so consumed with FMA.

so the FMA can seem "too violent" for many people.

I think that the UFC looks really violent to people too and scares off the average joe looking to work out a bit, ot learn a few survival tricks on the partking lot.

Hock

 

[cfadeftac]

Remy Presas was a little slow on his marketing since he didn't bring out the belts or uniforms until he had been in North America a long time.

AN

[Benjamin Liu]

What I mean by "too violent" is that many see weapons, especially edged or firearms, as being "too violent" or even "evil."  With some of those types certain types of violence is OK. There are people who'd condemn us as "violent" for owning knives or firearms yet these same people think nothing of getting up and screaming like a hysterical idiot, even with phrases like "Kill them!" when watching a sporting event.  They have violence compartmentalized between "sports" which is "OK" and "reality" which is "bad."  Sports have a positive image and knives had an image of being associated with thugs.  These days the media and academia even have people convinced that a Boy Scout with a Swiss Army knife is a terrorist/criminal threat since all knives are "bad." 

[Benjamin Liu]

My Eskirma training was first with an American who taught it alongside Bujinkan and later with a Filipino teaching a similar Eskrima system.  Neither instructor had many students, if there were 10-15 people in the class at one time it was a really big class.  I don't know whether those numbers are typical or not with schools in general.  With the Filipino instructor, a significant number of students were Filipino, so being Filipino might help if marketing to the Filipino community.  While I signed up for Eskrima classes he also taught kickboxing and other arts which is where I suspect he made most his money.  Many seem to teach FMA on the side rather than the primary focus of their schools. 

One of my cousins teaches Eskrima but he told me he and his fellow instructors only teach private lessons or to groups like police departments, they don't have regular dojos.  FMA seems to be a fringe art and IMO it does not seem like many practitioners really care to change that.

With the general public, image is everything.  The grapplers have the UFC type events, the acrobatic and high kickers have just about every MA movie, and FMA has only one movie I know of that approached being popular in the US, which was "The Hunted,"  and that wasn't even really an action movie.  WHile FMA can be flashy, it isn't flashy enough to compete with current computer generated special effects.  The average person will consider the bladework on "V For Vendetta" to be superior to that on "The Hunted," for example.  What that means is that unless someone comes up with a good FMA movie, FMA instructors will not have any pop culture to latch onto like other arts, and instead would have to depend on a really good marketing strategy.

[ghostrider]

The real difficulty is in the selling point of any Martial activity. At one time combative methods were not that well-known or were scarce. Knowledge was just very little about the mystery of martial arts. That was there strong point. People didn't know much at all about any of it. In our modern times just about everyone knows something about the arts and while novices can get educated by going on the internet. Something got lost on the way of this journey called Growth. The real essence of what is being taught. Survival yes, but also individual development. How we interact with one another. While we as trainers and training, learning all we can from each other let us not miss other points in all of it. Seek it out and find it.
No matter whether it be FMA or any other discipline. Find out what you like to do and learn, then educate yourself about what others are interested in, teach it and develop it.

[Hock]

FMA seems to be a fringe art and IMO it does not seem like many practitioners really care to change that.

Oh, I don't know.
How many FMA instructors wouldn't like to do their hobby full time in a big, nice, successful school. Make their living with one of their hobbies that they love?

Hock

[410indashade]

It seems to me both Hock and Nick have gotten to the gist of it.  The problen of how to make stick and knife combatives appealing to both new (i.e. novice students) and experienced martial artists is to refer to it in a plain language that the potential customer will understand.  And at the same time use terms that will not alienate us from the society in general.  Just spitballing here but I am sure you more experience  heads will let me know it when I get too way out there in the ozone.  In trying to set up my own business of teaching what I know of effective modern survival technque I accessed Hock's sport vs. combat training article in his August 2006 blog.  I believe the way to appeal to the sheep is to target their overwhelming need to feel safe.  Emphasizing not how to fight with guns, knives, clubs and their own hands as a goal in itself but how to render safe firearms, safely handle knives, and how defend themselves or loved ones from drunks or muggers using a bludgeon or his hands and feet.  I just don't have a short sexy name for it yet.  Versado? Lambjitsu? Seax & Bat? "adapt and overcome"     

[Hock]

Three or four years have now passed.

ANy new ideas or discussion about my orginal premise that to REALLY do well in FMA, a person probably needs to be a Filipino?

Look around.

Lets use Los Angeles Krav Maga in their hayday as...really doing well.
But really do well is FMA a losing and dis-interesting cause?
Even Filipino FMA masters seem to be minor leaguers these days.

Hock

[Bryan]

Even people that were FMA and only FMA are now changing names, trying to get more appeal. For whatever reason, there is a major decline in postings on about every FMA forum I have surfed in the last six months. FMA was a hard sale in the 90s, now with so many War Vets with actual experience in modern urban warfare, selling third generation combat stories and lineages without being able to show personal experience as a subject matter expert is a very hard sale.

  Many of the FMA "experts" who are Filipino have never lived in the Philippines, have other martial art backgrounds, do not have any practical experience, were never cops, bouncers, bikers, or even convicts, have never swung a stick in anger much less been in a knife fight, so why bother.

[Hock]

Remember this old debate?
Its now 2009 and where are the big name, influenttial FMA people?

Hock

[Bryan]

Remember this old debate?
Its now 2009 and where are the big name, influenttial FMA people?

Hock

  Go over to Blade Forums and check the FMA section. Its dead, dead, dead, over there. Same with the Sayoc Website, I was just looking at something over there the other day and was about bored to death.

 
 

[whitewolf]

Arnold-he he he he- you continue to slay me-i think u should go on TV -a modern milton burl-yaa-and the advertising for Black Label  beer-would be cool too

I also agree with Hock-MMA instruction is almost ignored by the vast population that just wants self protection tactics-the business profesional i.e. nurse, bank clerk, etc
will not go out on the mat for a hour and half and get smacked around-

WW (ELB)
"speed of light"

[sarguy]

It's now 2011, and stumbled across this thread while searching for "Silat".  Fascinating read.

[Dawg]

Agreed. Glad you re-posted this; well worth the time to read again.

[Hock]

Interesting to re-read...

Hock