Topic: An unarmed combat book (Read 10495 times)

whitewolf · « **on:** November 21, 2009, 07:10:27 PM »

Hey guys- a guy i know showed me a book in a book store that sells old books.
Name of this one is "The elite forces handbook of Unarmed combat by A Mr Ron
Shillingford=priinted in Canada in 2000
Has some good info on different essentials of unarmed combat with some great pictures/drawings of defenses against kinife-club truncheion and also multiple attackers
Talks about Col Rex Applegate/Krav Maga/Russian military artts/Brits Para Regiment
also has some info on Cus D"Amato which i found interesting
It also has a chapter on multiple assailants and how to defend.
dont know if you can find it but it is a good addition to any martial arts library and some good defensive moves.

WW (ELB) "SPeed of light"

michael · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2009, 07:25:55 PM »

Never seen nor heard of that one, but it sounds very interesting.

whitewolf · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2009, 08:07:12 PM »

without going into to much detail here is one sarnaio from the book-defender faces 3 opponents-who are basically across from him
1-he attacks middle one first-hitting in face or stabbing in eyes
2-turns to man on right kicks to groin
3-faces middle man and pushes him into man on left while if close hits that man also in face
4-turns again to man on right and either strikes or re kicks and continues action...

explanation that goes with it states he has to initiat the attack to take out them out. While taking seminars in various places I have not seen defense against 3 -i will
walk through it with the class this week. I have seen some of this on vidios though.
WW (ELB) "Speed of light"

Hock · « **Reply #3 on:** November 23, 2009, 10:12:20 AM »

And I guess the other two attackers just stand there and wait their turn to be beaten?

Hock

noload · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2009, 08:57:05 PM »

Why the one in the middle? I learned and found in practice that it wasn't the best place to be? I've always lasted longer getting them sort of lined up so I could deal with them one at at time. Sort of.

Hock · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »

Best thing to do is play like a running back in football and get out of there.

Every second you stay and fight one of them, the others might pile on.

Highly received and the work of many...
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product305.html

Hock

noload · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2009, 09:20:59 PM »

Yeah, time isn't on your side in a 3 on 1 situation, unless you can get some kind of advantage. I did 3 on 1's in traditional karate which was three minutes of just trying not to get the crap beat out of you, using the smallest guy as a shield sometimes worked. Now it's trying to fight dirtier and quicker than the others.

whitewolf · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2009, 10:07:15 PM »

The article dd not state why he attacked the middle man first-it just showed that he
initiated the defense by striking the middle man-i understand that you dont want to be between attackers-some thoughts have come to miind on this though
1-defender should not attempt to turn his back or sides to attacker
2-initial response of attack may keep him ahead (if he keeps fighting)
3-possibility if this is a group of "bullies" by taking out one and then attacking another
may have them back off
4-If defender is near the middle man and initially strikes out at a man on either side it gives the middle man open target.

WW (ELB) "speed of light"

whitewolf · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2009, 07:52:36 AM »

Ok i went back to the article -here is some more exerpts from defending against 3 attackers=the defender under attack should try to manoeuvre in such a way that all 3 are on a line and he is the apex of a triangle opposite that line-ideally he should attack one on the outside to stop the line from wrapping around him-however that is not possible all the time -the defnder may have to deal with each opponent individually-
so that is one reason i suppose that they showed attacking the middle man-in any event he cannot wait til thye attack but should institute a attack him self with agression and continuous motion-

WW (ELB) "speed of light"

Hock · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2009, 09:35:45 AM »

"...attack should try to maneuvre in such a way that all 3 are on a line."

You know...this is just untested mythology. Training to align three or more people in a line as a major, go-to, multiple opponent strategy is just dojo...bullshit. This is the typical inexperienced, regurgatated, untested crap spit out in thoughtless people teaching classes.

Can you align three defenders rushing in on a running back a football game? How often does that happen on Saturday and Sunday.

The two major myths

a) fast fight and finish each one (while the other watch and wait?)
b) line the others up like puppets, so you can fast fight and finish each one while the fumbling, confused other two stumble around awaiting their turn to be fast fight and finished...in line

Why should “fast fighting” suddenly ALWAYS work in only multiple opponent encounters? When fast fighting doesn’t always work in one-on-one fights?

Don’t believe me? Get three friends, put some gear on and tell them to attack like three mad, bad guys. You’ll be bum rushed 8 out ot 10 times. You will be unable to line them up like puppets. No fast fighting two or three guys. No master puppet man manipulation of people in a line.

Now, multiple opponents have many situational and psychological aspects to each confrontation, but they are certainly not solved by training with enemies who wait their turn to be ass-whipped in slow motion or allow themsleves to be position into a line. In my DVD we show chaos examples of unplanned guys attacking one person. We show "get out of the room alive" scenarios. With mixed weapons. Stats show that 40% of the time we fight two or more people. And 40% of the time that enemy (in the USA) is armed with a knife or gun. No stats include sticks.

Whitewolf and Noload? Email me your land mail address and I will send you the Multiple Opponent DVDs for free and you will see what I mean.

Hock@HocksCQC.com

Hock

arnold · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2009, 11:03:31 AM »

All one really needs is "The Super Secret Book of Secrets" Everything else is, well, just everything else.

whitewolf · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:09:21 PM »

yepper yepper doo-WW (ELB) "speed of light"

shastana · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2009, 01:44:42 PM »

You can't always just run, that is dependent on your environment. Say in a narrow hallway in a club, or in a trench. And fighting three at once is suicide, so what can you do? Buy time by attacking one guy and pushing him into the other, and repeat hoping you can disable one of them quickly enough.

My girlfriend was felt out by two guys at a club, I came at one of them when I saw it, I attacked pulled the hoodie of one guy over his head while kicking at another guy and it gave me some room to escape. And then I thanked God for bouncer muscle, one guy searched and knife was found on him.

From where I'm sitting there is no majic bullet to anything, back to all that round and round discussion again. I say train in all the options and don't say nay to anything.

noload · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »

Quote from: Hock on November 24, 2009, 09:35:45 AM

Now, multiple opponents have many situational and psychological aspects to each confrontation, but they are certainly not solved by training with enemies who wait their turn to be ass-whipped in slow motion or allow themsleves to be position into a line. In my DVD we show chaos examples of unplanned guys attacking one person. We show "get out of the room alive" scenarios. With mixed weapons. Stats show that 40% of the time we fight two or more people. And 40% of the time that enemy (in the USA) is armed with a knife or gun. No stats include sticks.

Agreed. When I say get them sort of lined up I'm thinking of using my environment to help manage the distance and time. I'm always thinking trees, furniture, a door way, even other people, anything to possibly break up their mass attack or use as a makeshift weapon. On a good day you might even get a fatal funnel of sorts. So far in training it's worked, real world I've been lucky enough not to have to test it. Of course the dojo 3 on 1 was a different animal and more like a very lightweight version of a gang beat-in.

Quote from: Hock on November 24, 2009, 09:35:45 AM

Whitewolf and Noload? Email me your land mail address and I will send you the Multiple Opponent DVDs for free and you will see what I mean.

Thanks Hock, you've got mail.

TLE · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2009, 06:29:48 AM »

A freiend of mine( lots of MA training) was jumped by 3 guys. One guy grabbed him from behind while a second came at him from the front. The third guy just sort of hung back to the side. My friends response was pretty much Hollywood. Kicked the front guy to give a little space reverse elbows got the guy off from behind. My friend fell in that exchange as the third guy came in to kick him he grabbed the leg an and put him down. I guess seeing that he was not an easy mark, the three assailants just took off. It was about 10:00pm and the street was fairly well traveled which probably expains the attackers quick exit once they found soem reisitance. By the way it was a cold night and he was wearing a hoody that blocked his side vision. I think a lot of success in mutliple attacker scenarios has to do with the assailants commitment and intent.

Canuk · « **Reply #15 on:** November 26, 2009, 10:15:12 AM »

Quote from: Hock on November 24, 2009, 09:35:45 AM

"...attack should try to maneuvre in such a way that all 3 are on a line."

You know...this is just untested mythology. Training to align three or more people in a line as a major, go-to, multiple opponent strategy is just dojo...bullshit. This is the typical inexperienced, regurgatated, untested crap spit out in thoughtless people teaching classes.

Can you align three defenders rushing in on a running back a football game? How often does that happen on Saturday and Sunday.

The two major myths

Not wanting to seem a scamer here, but can i get in on the deal Hock?
a) fast fight and finish each one (while the other watch and wait?)
b) line the others up like puppets, so you can fast fight and finish each one while the fumbling, confused other two stumble around awaiting their turn to be fast fight and finished...in line

Why should “fast fighting” suddenly ALWAYS work in only multiple opponent encounters? When fast fighting doesn’t always work in one-on-one fights?

Don’t believe me? Get three friends, put some gear on and tell them to attack like three mad, bad guys. You’ll be bum rushed 8 out ot 10 times. You will be unable to line them up like puppets. No fast fighting two or three guys. No master puppet man manipulation of people in a line.

Now, multiple opponents have many situational and psychological aspects to each confrontation, but they are certainly not solved by training with enemies who wait their turn to be ass-whipped in slow motion or allow themsleves to be position into a line. In my DVD we show chaos examples of unplanned guys attacking one person. We show "get out of the room alive" scenarios. With mixed weapons. Stats show that 40% of the time we fight two or more people. And 40% of the time that enemy (in the USA) is armed with a knife or gun. No stats include sticks.

Whitewolf and Noload? Email me your land mail address and I will send you the Multiple Opponent DVDs for free and you will see what I mean.

Hock@HocksCQC.com

Hock

Joe Hubbard · « **Reply #16 on:** November 26, 2009, 12:06:45 PM »

With multiples it is important to break things down to the nth degree. Always start with a 2 vs. 1 scenario and then start building from there. There are so many things to factor into the equation and the biggest training mistake - as always - is throwing your students into a Tsunami where nothing works and they will always be killed.

Never run down the center of two or more attackers as this increases the chances of being eveloped by the pack.

One concept you will hear again and again is always attack the leader of the pack. Of course it is an optional strategy, but so is attacking one of the weaker henchmen in order to psyche yourself up to take on a stronger member of the group.

Some things to think about while running your drills:
-evasive footwork
-disengagement tactics
-relaxed awareness/controlled aggression
-superior close quarter striking tools
-human shield principle
-force multiplier weapons integration

Joe

whitewolf · « **Reply #17 on:** November 26, 2009, 02:24:33 PM »

Thats good -WW

Hock · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2009, 07:33:17 PM »

The old leader of the pack attack....

If I attack Captain Kirk? What do you think Mr Spock will do to me?

Hock

whitewolf · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2009, 08:05:52 PM »

Hock i imagine that Dr Spock would wiggle his ears so hard the wind would blow you over

Canuk · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2009, 07:53:56 AM »

Ok. this incident happened last week and hit close to home for me because it involved my oldest boy (hes 20). He was at a party and witnesed a sexual assualt take place against a female by three males. My Son stepped in to stop it and it turned it to a fight three against one, one of them also pulled a knife on my boy and slashed him in the head requireing stiches, he also lost a front tooth. But, my Son won the fight in fact he chased all three of them down the street where the police then intervened. He did not give up, he used his surrondings to his advantage and used improvised weapons. He had a battle plan and stuck with it, he took the fight to them and used controlled aggression and ugly tactics to his advantage. I couldnt be more proud of him. Although the new tooth is 4 grand. The sadest part was that there were several other males around who didnt do shit to help the girl.

whitewolf · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:18:33 AM »

Canuk- couple thoughts
1-Proud of your son-in todays world most run and ignore......
2-It must be your genes that popped out

3-A thought -talk to him about the attack and so he dont freeze up in the future-its like a person who has a bad car accident- they have to get back in the car and drive again.
4-Tell him to watch his back-you know shit heads return some times
stay safe WW (ELB) "speed of light" Richard

Canuk · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2009, 12:36:23 PM »

Good points WW, We have had a talk about it and run through the "sticky" points a time or two. He seems ok with it, but ill be watching him closely. And yeah theres always a chance or some pay back, hes a pretty savy kid

whitewolf · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2009, 05:48:25 PM »

Canuk-without going into much detail-what kind of training do u pass on to students
to be alert to possible attacks?
WW (ELB) "speed of light"

Canuk · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:54:06 PM »

mostly what everyone else teach's avoid dark ally's pay attention to your environment. I also encourge then to go to a mall and just people watch, see if they can pick out those persons displaying clusters of odd behaviour. Its amazing what you can spot when you actually pay attention

whitewolf · « **Reply #25 on:** December 05, 2009, 08:20:59 PM »

Canuk-very interesting-we think alike-when my wife goes to a mall to shop-i spend the waiting time looking for shop lifters (i was a store detective in hawaii)-also i look for the odd behavior person (men and women)-body language means a lot-i learned from good store detectives on picking out the possible problem people-i use those tips to pass on to students and when i give a seminar.-also when i visit almost every martial arts school i never see the instructor give any tieaps about the evil out there and the preditors who lurk about. One time I found a perfect example about evil on the internet a few years ago-if u want ill pass it on to you here.
whitewolf (elb) "speed of ligh"

noload · « **Reply #26 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:15:06 PM »

Just finished watching Hock's video on multiple attackers. Good stuff, close to what I'm currently doing, and I'll be grabbing some of the drills as they fit in real nice with our practice.

Canuk · « **Reply #27 on:** December 13, 2009, 08:59:27 PM »

Quote from: whitewolf on December 05, 2009, 08:20:59 PM

Canuk-very interesting-we think alike-when my wife goes to a mall to shop-i spend the waiting time looking for shop lifters (i was a store detective in hawaii)-also i look for the odd behavior person (men and women)-body language means a lot-i learned from good store detectives on picking out the possible problem people-i use those tips to pass on to students and when i give a seminar.-also when i visit almost every martial arts school i never see the instructor give any tieaps about the evil out there and the preditors who lurk about. One time I found a perfect example about evil on the internet a few years ago-if u want ill pass it on to you here.
whitewolf (elb) "speed of ligh"

Great, id love to see it

whitewolf · « **Reply #28 on:** December 13, 2009, 11:14:52 PM »

Canuck-here is the jist of the article on evil -
There are 3 types of people
First is the "hi how are you"-this type is the average person-they never cross the line of violence

The second is the mentally disturbed person- they cross the line of violence all the time

The third person is the Insane person-they dont cross the line of violence because they
do not even see the line of violence-they are the evil ones-the kind that will destroy
a victim. i.e.-rapists who kill.stalkers who kidnap and kill the victim,pedifils,the homless who protect thier turf by attacking

This thrid= insane person is the one who we have to train against in our classes for self defense -the self defense school that does not go into this is not preparing the student
for reality in the street.

WW (ELB) "speed of light"

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Author Topic: An unarmed combat book (Read 10495 times)