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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

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Author Topic: training with the baton against a knife  (Read 5184 times)

whitewolf

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training with the baton against a knife
« on: December 11, 2009, 12:37:23 PM »

I have a sheriff deputy in class now-I am practising defense against  knife /botttle/stick using a baton against a attacker with him-using the tactics I took at Hocks seminar plus other tactics -any suggestions guys on the basic defense strikes you use in practise-i am showing him to strike against the weapon first-thanks WW
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Canuk

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 01:24:44 PM »

Apart from, move move move, I teach strike at the wrist/arm that is holding the knife/edged weapon.
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whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 03:06:12 PM »

Thats what i am doing-i was shown by a trainer from Austtralia on disarming the weapon
from the hand after striking the wrist-what we were doing is repeated disarms -me than him-we are going to do it each class over and over- WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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Hock

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 03:13:30 PM »

Nor sure we did this in Missip seminar but...

Knife attacker strikes
  Thrusting motions
  Pumping motions
    with right hand thrusting stab saber grip
    with right hand hooking stab saber grip
    with left hand thrusting stab saber grip
    with left hand hooking stab saber grip
                                                                                        12, 3, 6, 9

                                                                           ><     of the combat clock
                                        
    with right hand thrusting stab reverse grip
    with right hand hooking stab reverse grip
    with left hand thrusting stab reverse grip
    with left hand hooking stab reverse grip
 

And feel free to stick-strike/whoop the forearm too! Bigger target! If you aim only for the wrist and hand? Troublesome. One reason is if he is a "pumping" attacker, as so many are, the forearm strike target may still hit the wrist.

Hock
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 03:16:10 PM by Hock »
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seldomseen

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 04:54:14 PM »


  Whitewolf,

   Just a suggestion, but have him wear his duty belt, and clear his handgun. You attack and he counters by quick draw of his weapon, and firing 2 rounds on you.

   I know, people are going to say, "but you don't have time to access your handgun, within 21 ft." Bullshit. We do repeated drills from hand to hand contact, and with a push off with the lead hand, and quick sideways movements, almost everyone, with practice, can access their weapon and fire 2 rounds.

    You might want to do this on those nights when it's just you and him, or only leo's there. Some people get real nervous with using the firearm, even when it's cleared.

     We've found there's no substituition for using the real gun. When the trigger is pulled, and you hear that sound it adds a sense of realism that fake guns or sims just don't have.

     Even if the deputy is assigned to the jail, there are many times when they are in full uniform , ie; on their way to work, transporting inmates, perimeter checks, extra duty jobs, just to name a few. I'm not saying, don't do empty hand defenses, just make sure you emphasize armed defenses first, in my opinion.



    Jason



« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:16:54 AM by Hock »
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seldomseen

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 05:03:14 PM »



  WW,

   To add to the first post, as my computer is a pos. Having him use the baton as a defense is awesome, but, I just hate to see too much practice with using other weapons besides the firearm. For a leo, firearms are justified against a suspect with a weapon, and I strongly feel that having your student do most of their drills using their handgun as a defense will imprint that into their memory.

   It's good to see instructors that work with leo's tho, keep up the good work!!

    Jason
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Canuk

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »

we have Sherifs in Canada, in some provinces, some have no access and are not issued firearms and some are. But they all have stick,  you should always be skilled with all weapons, not just the gun.
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seldomseen

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 05:34:12 PM »



    Canuk,

     I understand your point. But, all leo's here ( where WW Lives ) have firearms. And yes, you need to be skilled in all weapons.

      But, the only time you would use a baton against a knife is when your firearm has malfunctioned. Or, maybe, if you're in an area where you can't discharge your firearm.

     My main point is to spend most of your time using the firearm defense, so as not to build up "muscle memory", so that when the real situation occurs, you don't have an officer reflexively grabbing his baton against a knife or other baton.

     But, I do applaud whitewolfs efforts.

     Jason
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Canuk

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 07:25:37 PM »

Agreed, if you have fire power redirect, reposition and engage. I would also run failure drills at close quaters with the firearm.
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seldomseen

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 07:31:49 PM »



   Yeah, my first post was a little askew as I just woke up from a midnite shift.

   I agree with the baton training 100%, I just want to make sure their doing reps with the firearm. We've had a couple of officers get injured this year as they pulled the taser vs. the knife.

    Jason
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whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 09:13:17 PM »

Guys appreciate the info- Ill ask him if he desires to use a actual weapon- his choice- also ill be  practising with him and a army MP on unarmed defense against knife/bottle also the sheriff carries all the time off duty and on duty=he has to had to draw his sidearm twice while off duty this year-
Tn just passed another law which makes it even easier to carry if one has a carry permnit-it appears that the whole state is armed............

Hock- i really dont remember what actual defenses we did-but i am waiting for your
new knife book i just ordered- ill take training from it..
WW (ELB) "speed of lighgt"
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seldomseen

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 08:29:39 AM »



    WW,

    Keep up the good work, it's great to see schools that will work with law enforcement officers on their specific needs.

     Just a suggestion. Have him train to access his baton/firearm where he carries it off duty as well. Off duty carry sites vary greatly from wearing it on your duty belt and sometimes provide difficulties with quick access.


      Jason
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whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 08:06:22 PM »

Jason-after new years when he comes back to training i thought i would have him wear civilian clothes and carry a fake pistol and do some attacks to see where best place to carry is for him and how fast he can get at it-
as far as teaching Law enforcement types its hard to ger them to try it-maybe its a mind thing>>??????  WW
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Canuk

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2009, 06:22:38 AM »

spot on there WW most LEO want nothing to do with training at all, its even hard on requals to get them to turn up.

If your buddy comes back and carry's concealed get him to use the holster he would be using to carry the gun in. Access to the weapon and the ability to then draw the that weapon are key componets.
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Hock

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2009, 09:30:26 AM »

"  am waiting for your  new knife book i just ordered- ill take training from it..."


Well WW, the way my courses are organized...My knife book is

                      empty hand
Knife      vs       stick
                       knife
                       gun threats

It's a knife book about using the knife and I am afraid there won't be any "stick" versus knife in it. Stick versus the knife is in the stick course. DVDs and TM books. I am doing a stick-only book for 2010. That is why I gave you that outline at the very beginning of this thread. The impact weapon/stick book is:

                      empty hand
Stick      vs       stick
                       knife
                       gun threats

All the prior discussion about shooting the knife attacker are all filmed in the Training Mission One DVD http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product75.html
Rawhide Laun, Barnhart and I did a whole module on that with simulated ammo, (years ago before it was cool and the gun gods scoffed us such as “playing with toys.”)

Training to shoot the knife attacker MUST be done with simulated ammo. Even rubber band guns, or airsoft, gas, markers or Sims. Then the knife attacker MUST act like he has been shot - but still attack like a wounded man! Otherwise the gun man has no sense of reality, of what the shot, revved up attacker might still do after being shot. Many times this winds up in very CQC combatives with support hand strikes, kicks, and grappling.

This takes us back to the old line, “acting is needed in reality training”

Hock
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:35:48 AM by Hock »
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whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2009, 11:40:05 AM »

got you-stick or no stick i am looking forward to the book-as many many good guys carry a knife also it is good to read up on use of it-waiting for the post man to knock on the door-WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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Dawg

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2009, 05:49:05 PM »

WW,
Hock will be in Meridian again in Feb.; bet'cha we're gonna work some stick stuff. Make plans to be there.

'Nuff said!
(See, Dawg's still lookin' out for Wolfie)

P.S.
Pay attention, will ya!

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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 07:25:15 PM »

i am trying to come there-WW
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Dawg

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 08:23:22 PM »

Coolness! 8)

We can have another "howling" session at the Crescent City Grill!
2010 is lookin' good already!
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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

whitewolf

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Re: training with the baton against a knife
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2009, 07:49:36 AM »

I am looking forward to a couple vodkas with blackbarry brandies and some good rapping
with you guys  WW
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