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  • December 15, 2018, 10:06:08 PM
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Author Topic: Tueller Drill  (Read 6501 times)

noload

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Tueller Drill
« on: December 20, 2009, 08:50:56 PM »

I will start off by saying that I'm not a gun guy. I train but I don't know all things gun which is one reason I posted this here.

Over the last couple of years I've come across stuff like this.

...in combat training  imagine a 20 ft circle around you. Even if you hit a bad guy right in the heart he will still have enough adrenalin and blood to cover a 20 ft span and stab you to death before he goes down. So training dictates you aim for the pelvic area, not only is it a nice big area, but shattering the pelvic bone makes it impossible for him to mechanically carry out the attack... this is an example of the tactical training that's lacking for most gun owners.

Obviously this person is basing this on the Tueller Drill but did they ever read what Tueller suggested to help handle the problem?
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

Oddly the above paraphrase usually goes on about how adrenaline will reduce shooting skills by sometimes 50%, sometimes another number.  Also for some reason adrenaline only works in the bad guys favor and never for the good guy, so we must have too different types. ;D I'll not mention much about shooting the pelvic area except that I learned it was better than nothing if you were shooting in close.

So, after all that, what kind of training and opinions do you guys have of the Tueller Drill and variations of it for empty hand and other weapons?

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Canuk

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 09:37:58 PM »

we have a lot more information now than we did in 1983. Also reality has to kick in at some point, ever play reaction games as a kid, like slap? It's played finger tip to finger tip with one person designated as the slaper, the object of the game was to move your hands away from the other persons before they could slap them (remember you are finger tip to finger tip), in some cases reaction was faster than action, i play this game with my kids its good for building observational skill sets that are precousers to action. I think Tuellers rule has be debunked utterly and completly over the years.
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noload

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2009, 09:58:20 PM »

Did Tueller actually have a rule, or was it turned into a rule by those who came long after? I'm not sure but it's been pretty common in the past.

Also, did 20 feet become popular with trainers because it made for a good drill or that it almost guaranteed failure which helped convince a potential customer that they needed additional training?

The guy I train with has run similar drills from various distances (0 feet to 30+feet with C&C) and situations with the goal of reacting properly, which may or may not be with a weapon.
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JimH

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2009, 10:10:33 PM »

I have read that the Tueller drill has been expanded to 30 feet in some training scenarios ?

Movement and cover buys more time if the attacker INDEED comes from 20-30 feet
But
How many attacks start at that distance ?

Tueller applies this rule to an Officer facing a person with a knife.
I tell people I train that it applies to all people with any weapon or empty hand against all people with any weapon or empty hand .
If the attacker is close anything can happen and any thing can and will come into play.
so always be careful,diligent and ready to Act / React.

I run drills with a victim carrying a folder in his/her pocket and a person with a weapon,any weapon (except a firearm),charges with the weapon out and at the ready,now draw your folder from your pocket,deploy it and use it.
This problem as Tueller presents it,(to me) actually carries into all weapons use at 20-30 feet to much closer ranges.

Train to move at any time in the confrontation.
Train to step off and close the gap at an angle,when in real close, to afford you targets and remove the opponents targets and ability to use a weapon.

Learn to control an opponent with distance and time,(if and when available).
Learn to control an opponent with hands and movement,these are the only way to buy time to employ empty hands to weapons (to include a fire arm) and REACT to an Action made by an Opponent.

As far as shooting an attacker employ movement and just hit them and keep hitting them with rounds till they bleed out and drop.
If you are going to aim for targets like pelvis,head,legs arms,hands you are wasting time trying to aim at specifics rather than sticking the weapon straight out from your center and hitting the attackers body in general.

Just train against all distances,situations ,weapons,find the truth and ways to make surviving work.
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noload

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 06:48:43 AM »

Movement and cover buys more time if the attacker INDEED comes from 20-30 feet
But
How many attacks start at that distance ?

For me it was in San Diego while cutting through a fenced in parking lot with a pedestrian exit and an opening for the cars. I noticed one fellow about 150 feet to my right on an intercept. For some reason I also checked my six to see another fellow about 100 feet back signaling the guy on the right. I hit it into high gear and count getting out of there on the fact that the guy on the right had to make a lot of cuts to intercept. I was just plain faster than the guy bringing up the rear. Toss in the two Naval officers that showed up and to whom I pointed out the two bad guys too. BGs took off running through the pedestrian exit.

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noload

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 07:18:33 PM »

Hock,
Good stuff as usual from the Force Science folks.
I think a lot of the 21 foot failure crowd would learn a lot if they actually tested this idea and looked for solutions to the problem. I guess it's easier to pass on fourth hand information than see if it actually holds water. This same crowd also poo poos information like Dr. Lewinski's.
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Hock

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 12:37:14 PM »

Just a note, when Jeff Rawhide Laun and I taught at that international police shooting conference last May, 2010, Mr. Tueller himself attended one session. We talked quite a bit and ran the drill history, starting at Gunsite, of the 21 foot experiment. He wrote about the experiment and what he saw. This article became popular. He never meant for it to become some sort of international standard, and he is somewhat amazed at all the stories and variations that the "Tueller Drill" has become today.

Hock 

Webby

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 03:02:11 AM »

It's a simple rule to remember, but I feel an important one. Most people can't run a hundred meters in ten seconds from a standing start. However most people can cover up to ten meters in less than five seconds. If your getting old and slow like me, the bigger the space, the greater the reactionary gap you have. I'm working with drug addicts with mental health problems at the moment and I maintain a large gap, or if the situation doe's not allow that. I have a barrier ( table / counter ) between Myself and them. At all times ! I'm not into risk taking !

My nursing trainer in the 80's used to say ' I want to life long enough to lie to my Grandchildren ! '. On a research level I think Hick's Law still stands the test of time.
If you look up Dr.Robert Hicks on Wiki it's all there.  Webby     
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Canuk

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 07:32:08 AM »

Webby, you need to look at the new research for hicks law
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Kentbob

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 10:27:53 AM »

I think the Tueller drill/experiment has been quite fascinating.  Whenever I run any kind of class with firearms or knives I make sure to include these observations.  Two police officers that I trained with in Alaska stated that their department had expanded it to be thirty feet, instead of twenty one. 

I don't know about making a drill out of the observation, but it's definitely a good learning point for everyone.  We've all heard the comeback from the untrained and the un-initiated about "Well, if he's got a knife, I'll shoot him."  I frankly like the Tueller experiment/drill as a way of showing these people that it's not quite so cut and dried as all that.


Kent
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Webby

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2010, 03:54:57 AM »

Sorry Hock + Canuk, you guy's are right !! I must update my theory studies.

Hick's and co have indeed been superseeded. Thing's evolve and new discoveries made though reseach and better tech. I've not been following the advances.

On a unrelated topic I highly recommend the You Tube site : No Arms No Legs No Worries. It's a motivational talk by Nick Vujicic. The next time someone says, I can't do X or Y get them to watch this !! Don't put it on in front of the Mrs, my lady balled her eye's out !!

Thanks again for the update and fresh info !! Stay Safe, Webby !   
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whitewolf

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Re: Tueller Drill
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2010, 05:47:19 AM »

Recommend that all reread "all Articles here"-the information presented should be presented to our classes when teaching-and when discussing "real self defense"-
Excellent information is presented here.
WW (ELB) Speed of light
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