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W. Hock Hochheim's

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  • May 26, 2018, 11:22:00 PM
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Author Topic: choke  (Read 4786 times)

whitewolf

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choke
« on: November 25, 2010, 05:55:10 PM »

I just read one of Hocks past mags- their was a discussion on chokes- very good-
my question is-someone please explain a Valsalva Manover -pressure on the chest cavity.
How is it preformed and how long do u hold it on?
thanks- WW
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whitewolf

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Re: choke
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 08:03:08 PM »

No takers? Ok - I think they mean pressing down on the chest very hard or wrapping legs around upper waist and squeezing which is a illegal manover in judo (from what i remember)-
Come on JimH- help me out here.  WW
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JimH

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Re: choke
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 10:01:36 PM »

WW,
My understanding of the Valsalva comes from weight training and it happenes when a lifter holds their breath during a lift and the oxygen does not get to the brain due to intra abdominal  and or thorax/chest pressure.

Now my knowledge of the Valsalva in regard to chokes ,is if the opponent gets so worked uo during the altercation that they forget to breathe ,they basically are  using effort to fight but not breathing.
If this happened,that the opponent forgets to breathe and holds their breath while straining to fight,if a vascular neck  choke was applied we would be able to drop the opponent faster.

Also:
As this applies to an opponent ,it can also apply to us if we hold our breath during extreme effort as this alone may cause black out,add a vascular choke and drastically increase time to black out.

I hope it helps in some way.
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whitewolf

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Re: choke
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 08:28:52 AM »

JimH-i did some resarch-u are correct- one has to breath out when pushing or weight lifting-interesting . Thanks  WW
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gematriot

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    • Systema training adapted to YOUR contemporary needs and goals
Re: choke
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 12:08:00 PM »

Picture the lungs as a pressure cooker. When you "turn up the heat" with physical exertion, pressure builds up inside the lungs. Forgetting to breathe result in danger for the body. Continuing the analogy, as pressure builds in the cooker it is bled off by the safety valve, if the pot were immediately opened, all pressure would be instantly, and explosively lost. When "lifting iron", keep a feeling of pressure in the lungs throughout the lift, push the air out in a hissing fashion, using the diaphragm as the "safety valve"! Thatīs how I was taught...
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"Any experiment of interest in life will be carried out at your own expense. Mark it well. "

whitewolf

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Re: choke
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 01:10:16 PM »

great thanks to both for the info-appreciate it- WW
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rutleddc

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Re: choke
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 11:26:52 AM »

When I was a flight test engineer for the Air Force in the early 1980s we were all taught the valsalva maneuver to reduce the effect of g forces in turns. We would such some air into the lungs, then compress the air by tightening the muscles of the chest and abdomen. This increased the blood pressure and hence blood flow into the brain to prevent grey outs and black outs (I greyed out once anyway, getting narrow tunnel vision for a moment).

We also wore g-suits on our legs to keep blood from pooling, but back then they did not cover anything above the waist. I don't know if the valsalva is taught or necessary anymore.
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"Ruttles"
David Rutledge

whitewolf

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Re: choke
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 06:39:56 PM »

Rut- do you think if being choked one tried that it would help from going out untill he could fight his way out of the choke-?? WW
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JimH

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Re: choke
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 10:25:23 AM »

WW,
When being choked,if one tried to use the Valsalva technique,it would cause the arteries in the neck to become more pronounced and be more to the surface making the vascular/blood choke easier.

When being choked,if vascular/pressure to the sides of the neck,one must train to RELAX,this allows one to last longer and sometimes not be choked.

If the choke is to the trachea,windpipe then you must get free fast,as a trachea choke ,if applied properly, will take you out in one to a couple seconds.
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redfive

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Re: choke
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 10:41:19 AM »

One of those weird fads hit our school in the mid 80s. 1988 I think it was .  In one week the EMTs had to come in and revive like 6 kids. One was in my gym class. The kid (dumb ass to begin with, so my feelings were not hurt) stood against the wall. Another kid put his hands on his chest like he was going to do CPR. Then three more kids would lean and push on the first and compress dumb asses chest. They held it for about one minute and then would let go. What ever it did, besides a hell of a head rush, it put dumb ass in cardiac errest. They finally said that anyone who even thought of doing it would be suspended. So I'm wondering if this is sort of the same thing, principal wise.

                                                      Redfive
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whitewolf

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Re: choke
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 11:04:52 AM »

This is interesting-when being choked if you relax the opponent can be tightened more-if you tighten the neck muscles it it harder to put it on-when i have my students practise the rear naked chokeon me-  we put pressure on the caratids -ii try to hold on by tightening the neck muscles-if i relax it goes on faster-i have not tried the other choke though-
I have been told that when the choke is put on to the front (trachea area-)_ pain is imediate and victim will struggle to get out.
WW
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