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Author Topic: Kitchen knives in the UK  (Read 17148 times)

Hock

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Kitchen knives in the UK
« on: May 28, 2005, 01:21:11 PM »

Doctors' kitchen knives ban call  
 
Doctors say knives are too pointed
A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing.
A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase - and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.

None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.

The researchers said a short pointed knife may cause a substantial superficial wound if used in an assault - but is unlikely to penetrate to inner organs.

 
Kitchen knives can inflict appalling wounds

In contrast, a pointed long blade pierces the body like "cutting into a ripe melon".

The use of knives is particularly worrying amongst adolescents, say the researchers, reporting that 24% of 16-year-olds have been shown to carry weapons, primarily knives.

The study found links between easy access to domestic knives and violent assault are long established.

French laws in the 17th century decreed that the tips of table and street knives be ground smooth.

A century later, forks and blunt-ended table knives were introduced in the UK in an effort to reduce injuries during arguments in public eating houses.

The researchers say legislation to ban the sale of long pointed knives would be a key step in the fight against violent crime.

"The Home Office is looking for ways to reduce knife crime.

"We suggest that banning the sale of long pointed knives is a sensible and practical measure that would have this effect."

Government response

Home Office spokesperson said there were already extensive restrictions in place to control the sale and possession of knives.

"The law already prohibits the possession of offensive weapons in a public place, and the possession of knives in public without good reason or lawful authority, with the exception of a folding pocket knife with a blade not exceeding three inches.

"Offensive weapons are defined as any weapon designed or adapted to cause injury, or intended by the person possessing them to do so.

"An individual has to demonstrate that he had good reason to possess a knife, for example for fishing, other sporting purposes or as part of his profession (e.g. a chef) in a public place.

"The manufacture, sale and importation of 17 bladed, pointed and other offensive weapons have been banned, in addition to flick knives and gravity knives."

A spokesperson for the Association of Chief Police Officers said: "ACPO supports any move to reduce the number of knife related incidents, however, it is important to consider the practicalities of enforcing such
 

Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2005, 02:48:42 PM »

I'm sure that the criminals are scared of these extreme measures....

::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)
  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)
::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)
  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)

God Bless Texas!   I went to an International Defensive Pistols Association (IDPA) competetion this morning with a pistol concealed on my hip and a knife in my pocket.   Most of the guys had the same . . .

Not a single criminal in sight.   8)     Maybe they are all heading to the UK for the sheep that the government is creating.  >:(
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tlouis

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2005, 05:33:45 PM »

i used to feel that knives were beyond  danger of being banned, simply because of their utility. I mean every household in America has sharp knives. You don't have to have a $200 tactical to be effective. However, I guess i could be wrong. Whats next? No rat tail combs? Re-designing pens and pencils so there is no sharp end? All glass replaced with plexiglass because its too easy to take a shard and make a shiv? No baseball bats unless you are within 1 mile of a ball field?
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2005, 07:28:28 PM »

i used to feel that knives were beyond  danger of being banned, simply because of their utility. I mean every household in America has sharp knives. You don't have to have a $200 tactical to be effective. However, I guess i could be wrong. Whats next? No rat tail combs? Re-designing pens and pencils so there is no sharp end? All glass replaced with plexiglass because its too easy to take a shard and make a shiv? No baseball bats unless you are within 1 mile of a ball field?

Here's the measurement of law:

"The law already prohibits the possession of offensive weapons in a public place, and the possession of knives in public without good reason   ::) or lawful authority, with the exception of a folding pocket knife with a blade not exceeding three inches.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 09:12:35 AM »

I get rather annoyed and offended when people imply that my country is full of "sheep", merely because they have a different culture as regards weapons. 
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 08:23:32 PM »

Americans don't refer to the Brits as sheep because they have a different weapons culture.  The term "sheep" is used because it appears to us here that the British governement is determined to disarm their citizens until they have no weapons left at their disposal. 

It began with draconian gun laws for private citizens which became even worse after Dunblane.  Then it was a ban on tear gas and sprays etc, tasers, extendable batons, and in fact anything designed as a weapon for personal defense.  It's now going to include kitchen knives and so, the logical question is, where does this end, if indeed it ever does.  Perhaps it will be screwdrivers next.

Once the entire populace has been disarmed thus you are in effect "sheep" due to the fact you don't have any "teeth" with which to fight back with.

The Americans, rightly or wrongly, enjoy their "right to bear arms" and can't fathom (especially here on a forum devoted to self protection and the right to self defense) how a group of people would allow their governement to do that to them without fighting back.

Having lived in the UK for six years and training with and working with govt operatives etc I know the governement's position.  They believe that if there aren't any weapons to be had there will be less violence, and, if some raises its ugly head they'll quickly take care of business with their cctv cameras and police officers.  Would that it were so.  We both know that isn't the case and all they've succeeded in doing is depriving honest, law abiding citizens of any effective means with which to defend themselves.

The gun laws in England have been in effect for a long time.  If they worked like they're supposed to there wouldn't be any gun deaths in the UK and of course there are.  Obviously their theory therefore is bollocks.  Instead of admitting that (gadzooks, can you ever imagine a govt admitting they got it wrong?) and giving the people back their right to defense they keep hammering away with more asinine and stringent rules.  The people over there seem happy to accept that which is why here, they think they're sheep.
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misshinryu

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 09:13:53 PM »

Americans don't refer to the Brits as sheep because they have a different weapons culture. The term "sheep" is used because it appears to us here that the British governement is determined to disarm their citizens until they have no weapons left at their disposal.

It began with draconian gun laws for private citizens which became even worse after Dunblane. Then it was a ban on tear gas and sprays etc, tasers, extendable batons, and in fact anything designed as a weapon for personal defense. It's now going to include kitchen knives and so, the logical question is, where does this end, if indeed it ever does. Perhaps it will be screwdrivers next.

Once the entire populace has been disarmed thus you are in effect "sheep" due to the fact you don't have any "teeth" with which to fight back with.

The Americans, rightly or wrongly, enjoy their "right to bear arms" and can't fathom (especially here on a forum devoted to self protection and the right to self defense) how a group of people would allow their governement to do that to them without fighting back.

Having lived in the UK for six years and training with and working with govt operatives etc I know the governement's position. They believe that if there aren't any weapons to be had there will be less violence, and, if some raises its ugly head they'll quickly take care of business with their cctv cameras and police officers. Would that it were so. We both know that isn't the case and all they've succeeded in doing is depriving honest, law abiding citizens of any effective means with which to defend themselves.

The gun laws in England have been in effect for a long time. If they worked like they're supposed to there wouldn't be any gun deaths in the UK and of course there are. Obviously their theory therefore is bollocks. Instead of admitting that (gadzooks, can you ever imagine a govt admitting they got it wrong?) and giving the people back their right to defense they keep hammering away with more asinine and stringent rules. The people over there seem happy to accept that which is why here, they think they're sheep.


Damn! Could not have said it better myself.
Bri Thai, I started writing to you but deleted it because I did not wish to offend you, BUT because those who do not speak up now in your country, will be lead to slaughter like sheep.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 11:33:57 AM »

Obviously people from both sides of the water on a forum like this will have stringent views on this issue.  But many UK people look at the USA and scratch their heads in bewilderment at the USA's fascination with weapons, especially guns.  They don't share the same history, not having had the experience of your constitution.  They just don't understand you.  Luckily for me I have guys like you to fill me in.

Yes, people in the UK are worried about their safety AND worried about their rights to self defence.  But they are not campaigning to be allowed to carry weapons. 

In the last few months the right to defend yourself in the home became a hot potato over here.  People like yourselves stirred up a hornets nest, absolutely aghast at all the injustices where innocent people had been prosecuted for harming an intruder.  So the Crown Prosecution Service looked back through records for the last 15 years.  Guess how many potential cases they found over all that time?  Eleven.  And guess what?  Those "innocent" home defenders included such cases as the man who overcame an intruder, subdued him.....then tortured him.....then set him on fire....... etc. etc.  Hardly reasonable self defence.

The UK has not got the balance right.  Our Govt does not yet give us got adequate protection, as law breakers seem to get released after tiny sentences.  But one thing is very sure.  The perception of the vast majority of UK citizens is that they are far safer in the UK than they are in the inner city areas of the USA.  They would laugh at the supposition that it is safer in the US.

Now I do see people point to quaint little towns in Texas or wherever, where everybody knows everybody, and they all walk round armed.  Theres certainly little trouble there.  But the NRA types seem to either brush over the horrendous crime rates in the cities or, conversely, point to them as evidence that people should be armed in order to protect themselves.  They seem to like it both ways, don't they?

How many US citizens agree with the NRA types anyway?  How many millions of your countrymen also think firearms should be banned?  Even your own people who share your own culture don't agree with you, so it's hardly a done deal that all US people are on your side.

And what is all this talk of self defence?  wasn't the right to bear arms in order to rise up against an unjust Government?  Things get a little murky, don't they?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't oppose the USA 2nd Amnmendment.  Not one bit.  It is a USA law for the USA. 

Like Ninor said, if the current position in the UK was correct, then there wouldn't be any gun deaths in the UK.  Guess what?  You can say exactly the same thing about the USA position.  Unless you want to have it both ways again.

We are from different cultures.  Lets celebrate the differences without trying to prove some kind of superiority.  Britain will solve things the British way.  America has given us too much in the way McDonalds, Whacko Jacko and Britney Spears.  Please don't give us anything else........ ;D

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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2005, 08:28:46 AM »

I get rather annoyed and offended when people imply that my country is full of "sheep", merely because they have a different culture as regards weapons. 

From my post:  "Maybe they are all heading to the UK for the sheep that the government is creating."

Please be annoyed and offended.  YOUR COUNTRY IS FULL OF SHEEP!!!!   Your government is creating them with stupid inconsistent laws that does not allow for the fact that people having brains enough to use a weapon in self defense.   

Quote
wasn't the right to bear arms in order to rise up against an unjust Government?  Things get a little murky, don't they?.

Yes.    Not murkey at all.   Our citizens have continued to fight for the right to have citizens armed to protect themselves from people that might harm them -- including the government.     

Quote
We are from different cultures.  Lets celebrate the differences without trying to prove some kind of superiority.


We are different.   The American colonies fought against the oppression by the English government and created its own constitution to protect the people from the government....with the rights of the people firmly held in above the rights of the government - thus the reason the 2nd is written as it was....due to fear of government oppression.....goblins were a problem already dealt with by citizens with their weapons - they wanted to assure their right to fight a oppressive goverment..

It's OK to be a sheep.   Just be aware that sheep are at the mercy of the goblins that stalk easy prey.   The US chose a different path (not necessarily superior), just the citizens have continued to uphold that they right to have teeth to defend themselves.

Jeff [JohnAdamsWannaBe] Allen
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Milldog1776

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2005, 09:24:46 AM »

Quote
And what is all this talk of self defence?  wasn't the right to bear arms in order to rise up against an unjust Government?  Things get a little murky, don't they?

Something for you to think about...

Every great genocide and dictatorship/totalitarian regime was preceded by the disarming of the citizenry "for their own good."
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Deadeye Dave

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2005, 09:38:55 AM »

BriThai wrote:

How many US citizens agree with the NRA types anyway?  How many millions of your countrymen also think firearms should be banned?  Even your own people who share your own culture don't agree with you, so it's hardly a done deal that all US people are on your side?

Who cares? It doesn't matter whether they agree or disagree. The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. The Bill of Rights merely enumerated those rights. It says, in effect, "Here the Government may not tread." Natural rights are not subject to "mob rule" (i.e., democracy). Also, being a natural right means that everyone possesses the same right, be they American, British, Indian, Muslim, what have you. We Americans are just lucky enough to live in a Constitutional Republic that protects these natural rights from the whims of popular opinion.

Now the unfortunate reality in this country is that the place is becoming increasingly "Mommy-ized" and our representatives are all too happy to cave in to the demands of the mob.


Remember folks, Democracy is two wolves and a pig voting on what's for dinner...

P.S.- John Stuart Mill (On Liberty) and Fredric Bastiat (The Law) can clear up this "natural rights" thing for ya... Both are available online for free.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2005, 02:01:25 AM »

Lets not dig at what the English have done throughout history.  The American Indians might want to remind you about the murderous way their own culture was destroyed in order to make way for you freedom lovers.   

And please don't live up to the unfair American stereotype of being people who are always "right" no matter what they do.  Their are enough racist anti American sentiments in the world without you fuelling them. 

And the anti democracy sentiments that leak out are disappointing, particularly when you invade countries for democracy's sake.  I know we are there with you, but we are not the ones questioning democracy.  Only you do when it looks like you might not get you're own way.  Now if there was ever an argument AGAINST arming the populace, then that is it.  Its an "everyone must do as I want or I will shoot thm" argument.

Back to topic.  If the right to bear arms is so good at keeping the peace, just how are all these thousands of Americans ending up dead every year?

I actually love America, but don't share this day dream that it is always right.

By the way, is anyone feeling offended by this?  I hope so.  You might learn about what happens when you throw stones at people, especially when you live in a glass house.

Fond regards,

Brian S

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cgonzales

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2005, 06:13:33 AM »

I once herd that when a law dosent make sense its not about safty or protection its about control. More cops, cameras or laws dont make me feel safer. And these kinds of laws are already here in the US, look at california and new york and nation wide with gun registration in the new patriot act.
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Virgil

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2005, 07:19:46 AM »

I think disarming a populace is such a hot-button topic, not because we Americans are such heavily armed cowboys (though we can be!  ;D ), but because it represents the ability of self-determination.  When the govt refuses to allow you to own a gun, knife, or other tool of defense, they are implicitly (and often explicitly)denying you the right to defend yourself.  Who "owns" you, you or your government?  Gun or knife ownership implies (indeed, demands) self control and accountability, and simply owning a weapon doesn't provide those. You can't solve social issues by giving everyone a .45, in spite of what my buddies in the NRA may believe.  But neither can you solve social problems simply by taking away everyone's .45, because weapons are inert; people are dangerous.
I read an article about defense that stated that in England, historically one had to have one's back to the wall before defense was justified, and in America we deviated from that with a 'no retreat rule' which meant one could legally stand one's ground.  Generally we still follow this, with notable exceptions like California.  California is a notable exception in most things, which is why it is regarded with suspicion by neighboring states.  ;)
We do have crime, and violent crime at that.  But crime is not directly correlated to gun ownership, and is more closely related to population density and socioeconomic factors.  As cgonzales points out, the most violent areas of our country have the highest level of government control of weapons.  Hmmnn, maybe there IS a direct link!
V
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2005, 08:45:12 AM »


Lets not dig at what the English have done throughout history.  The American Indians might want to remind you about the murderous way their own culture was destroyed in order to make way for you freedom lovers.   


I have indian bloodlines.....I'm aware.   I'm trying to keep the discussion to stupid weapons laws.....It doesn't seem to be working.


Quote

And please don't live up to the unfair American stereotype of being people who are always "right" no matter what they do.  Their are enough racist anti American sentiments in the world without you fuelling them. 


Convince me that disarming citizens and taking away their ability to defend themselves is correct.

Quote

And the anti democracy sentiments that leak out are disappointing, particularly when you invade countries for democracy's sake.  I know we are there with you, but we are not the ones questioning democracy.  Only you do when it looks like you might not get you're own way.  Now if there was ever an argument AGAINST arming the populace, then that is it.   Its an "everyone must do as I want or I will shoot thm" argument.


I don't understand this.....Again, convince me that disarming citizens and taking away their ability to defend themselves is correct.   

Quote

Back to topic.  If the right to bear arms is so good at keeping the peace, just how are all these thousands of Americans ending up dead every year?


I can't imagine the deaths if criminals had the ability to fleece us at will without us having any teeth.....This is unkin to leaving your the doors to your house unlock....you have to provide some self-protection - even my six year old has learned this lesson with his backpack that he takes to school.

This has nothing to do with America or the UK.   This has to do with out of control weapons laws [in any country] that disarm citizens.....Australia is one of the latest.

Quote

By the way, is anyone feeling offended by this?  I hope so.  You might learn about what happens when you throw stones at people, especially when you live in a glass house.


I'm not offended...I'm hard to offend.    Please teach me what happens....I didn't know that I threw a stone at anyone in particular.    By the way....I live in a ranch style brick house...with some glass windows....I've only broke one lately with a rock thrown from my mower.  I'm trying to be careful.

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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2005, 10:27:47 AM »

Virgil, rthe article you paraphrased was very wrong.  In English Law you can use what YOU believe at the time to be reasonable force to defend yourself.  It can include hitting first, using a knife, or even running someone over in a 10 ton truck.  EVEN IF IT TURNS OUT THAT YOU READ THE CIRCUMSTANCES TOTALLY INCORRECTLY, you will still be innocent if you acted with how you perceived the case to be at that time whilst under all that stress.

Unfortunately the arguments become a vicious circle.  When the premise is "you can't defend yourself in Britain", then every piece of information is twisted to fit.  Every supposed case of "self defence" is siezed on in a blinkered way, and the people ranting about it only see the bits they want to see.

But that premise is very wrong.  The odd case where someone has been arrested for "defending themselves" occasionally hits the press over here.  But, not only are certain key facts always UNreported, the thousands of self defence cases where NO prosecutions are brought are not newsworthy.

I have dealt with many of these cases personally, and have yet to be involved in a case where a person defending themself got arrested.

Prof - sorry mate.  I'm not into your "quote wars" tactics of discussion.  It makes you come across like that loony Don Rearic, or that  "ShortHand Empty Hand" idiot Phil Elmore.  I know you're not like that of course my friend.  I just can't see the value in that style of writing.
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seanross

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2005, 12:12:28 PM »

Universal declaration of the rights of man, 1789:


2 The aim of all political association is the preservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression.

Is not being attacked or robbed a form of oppression?  I would say then it is a political right to resist oppression in any form and that weapons increase my effectiveness in resisting oppression.  You can't resist guns with words in the short term.  The right to keep and bear arms is therefore a fundamental human right, not an American right.
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Chris Roberts

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 07:17:06 AM »

Well, I don’t get much time on here but have been following this one with interest and have finally got drawn in!

It seems to me that we’re all trying to get to the same place but are just taking two different routes; one group believe that by removing all weapons from the environment you are eliminating the threat of their use, the other believe that arming the majority negates the advantage sought by the criminal when using a weapon, thereby making it redundant; both are trying to level the playing field between criminal and potential victim. The way I see it, neither are working. Most countries have an increasing level of violent crime, whether their citizens carry arms or not – it just seems to be the way we’re going.

Of course we should all be able to enjoy our lives with the freedom to choose our own direction, but there must come a point were there are conflicts between the freedom of one person and that of another. A good example of this is the current hot topic over here of ‘hoodies’. An increasing number of areas are now banning anyone wearing hoodies as they are generally considered to be intimidating and are often associated with ‘criminals’. Whilst I agree that a group of hoodie wearing youths may be enough to make me cross to the other side of the road and, if you believe general opinion, a large number of criminals do wear hoodies, surely they have the right to wear what they choose?

I can’t really comment on the situation in the US – as a UK citizen, any opinions would be based on the picture painted by our press…. so best not to rely on that! But so far as the situation over here goes, I do appreciate the direction our government is taking but feel they’re fighting a losing battle. It’s in our nature (and I’m speaking generally here) to want more than we have, to explore places we haven’t been and to have our own piece of turf. There’s only so much to go around so, until human nature changes, there are always going to be those seeking an advantage over those around them. It’s not possible for everyone to have absolute freedom – we’re all unique individuals with our own morals and values. Any attempt to put us all in the same ‘acceptable behaviour box’ is going to result is some form of conflict.

Should we all have the right to carry a weapon? Yes.

Should EVERYONE be able to carry a weapon? No.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that guns, knives etc are inert – it’s the people wielding them causing the problems. But until we sort out the reasons people want / need to carry them, there’s no right way of doing this.

By the way, once saw a sheep knock a big guy to the ground with the minimum of effort – who needs teeth?.....
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 10:21:38 AM »

The quotes are just my attempt to try to break down multiple thought post into answerable questions - some post are very long and the internet is a tough way to communicate - no hidden tactic here....   
 

Or another way, what should a citizen of the UK be able to use to defend themselves (using Chris' phrase:  to level the playing field between criminal and potential victim)? 

I'm not trying to taint this question with other countries laws or philosophies....I'm trying to understand the UK thinking.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 10:35:23 AM »

No offence re the "quote wars" point Prof.  We'd be better off talking face to face, each with a pint of Guinnes.

What should a UK potential victim use?  Thats already clear (after a little study), as much force as he deems reasonable in the circumstances.  No, this is not rigourously defined because, if you think about it, it cannot be.  No two circumstances are ever the same, so the definition would be endless.

Force can be used, but it's the "weapons" bit that gets complicated.  The use of force and the use of weapons are largely covered by different legislation.  The law is never cut and dired.

Now I'll state my own vision of how the world could be.  I would give four categories of adult citizenship, Class 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Class 1 = no restirctions.  people can go wherever they please (respecting the privacy of others of course) and could carry whatever weapon for protection they wanted.  They could take part in any past time (reasonable ones of course, no playing "hunt the homeless" or anything evil) and be totally free.  This is the highest level and society would expect the highest standards of behaviour in order to keep it.

Class 2 would be similar, but with certain restrictions depending on any misdemeanours the person may have committed.  Gort drunk and caused trouble?  Then they can no longer drink alcohol for a defined period of time etc.  Class 1 status would be hard to win back.

Class 3 would be under greater restriction.  Curfews, no alcohol, certainly no weapons etc. etc.  These are people who have harmed others and  shown that they, as individuals, cannot be trusted with full freedom.  Basically they abuse the freedom of others and must be prevented from doing so.

Class 4 is prison.


There, libertarians would fall over in shock if we had a world like that because, of course, they have a proven track record of defending the rights of the guilty without ever mentioning the word "responsibilities".

So, in theor, I am certainly NOT against carry weapons for self protection.  Not one iota.  I'm pretty sure I'd feel comfortable with any of the forum members here if we shared a night in a bar with Guinnes, no matter what they packed on their hip.

But, like I said at the beginning, the current laws and culture in the UK is where I live at the moment.  And I'm a little tired of seeing it misrepresented and the people in it under estimated.
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 10:40:30 AM »

No offence re the "quote wars" point Prof.  We'd be better off talking face to face, each with a pint of Guinnes.

What should a UK potential victim use?  Thats already clear (after a little study), as much force as he deems reasonable in the circumstances.  No, this is not rigourously defined because, if you think about it, it cannot be.  No two circumstances are ever the same, so the definition would be endless.

Force can be used, but it's the "weapons" bit that gets complicated.  The use of force and the use of weapons are largely covered by different legislation.  The law is never cut and dired.

Now I'll state my own vision of how the world could be.  I would give four categories of adult citizenship, Class 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Class 1 = no restirctions.  people can go wherever they please (respecting the privacy of others of course) and could carry whatever weapon for protection they wanted.  They could take part in any past time (reasonable ones of course, no playing "hunt the homeless" or anything evil) and be totally free.  This is the highest level and society would expect the highest standards of behaviour in order to keep it.

Class 2 would be similar, but with certain restrictions depending on any misdemeanours the person may have committed.  Gort drunk and caused trouble?  Then they can no longer drink alcohol for a defined period of time etc.  Class 1 status would be hard to win back.

Class 3 would be under greater restriction.  Curfews, no alcohol, certainly no weapons etc. etc.  These are people who have harmed others and  shown that they, as individuals, cannot be trusted with full freedom.  Basically they abuse the freedom of others and must be prevented from doing so.

Class 4 is prison.


There, libertarians would fall over in shock if we had a world like that because, of course, they have a proven track record of defending the rights of the guilty without ever mentioning the word "responsibilities".

So, in theor, I am certainly NOT against carry weapons for self protection.  Not one iota.  I'm pretty sure I'd feel comfortable with any of the forum members here if we shared a night in a bar with Guinnes, no matter what they packed on their hip.

But, like I said at the beginning, the current laws and culture in the UK is where I live at the moment.  And I'm a little tired of seeing it misrepresented and the people in it under estimated.

So....

What weapons can a UK citizen currently utilize to level the playing field between criminal and potential victim?
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 12:21:54 AM »

The UK citizen cannot carry any weapons under current English Law.  .
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2005, 06:57:54 AM »

The UK citizen cannot carry any weapons under current English Law.  .

This is a very sad state of affairs for the UK citizen.
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 08:22:17 AM »

I'll say one thing about the UK- at least the cops don't carry guns.( otr do they now?) Nothing like the US where they want to have citizens weaponless and your average street cop is armed to the hilt. I emphatically support law enforcement but i am onot comfortable wiht the idea that only police can arm themselves.
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2005, 08:28:09 AM »

No it isn't Prof.  Haven't you read any of the thread?  We are much much safer than you.  That's why Hock's experiences go down so well over here.  These things very rarely happen in the UK and are the stuff of films to us.  It is in your country where the bullets fly every single day.

tlouis - The UK Police are not routinely armed, but there are a small number of Armed Response Officers on patrol who go to the incidents where they may be needed.  But they are armed in other ways, i.e. CS Gas (or similar) as well as batons.
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2005, 07:52:56 PM »


No it isn't Prof.  Haven't you read any of the thread?  We are much much safer than you.  That's why Hock's experiences go down so well over here.  These things very rarely happen in the UK and are the stuff of films to us.  It is in your country where the bullets fly every single day.


I would actually suggest that Hock is not there to entertain UK citizens on the thing that rarely happen in that UK and the stuff of films, but to provide education and training to citizens to defeat two targets, the enemy soldier and the criminal.   This is a new insight for me.

I've read the thread, tried to contribute.....I'll stick with "This is a very sad state of affairs for the UK citizen."

I'm not willing to leave my personal defense to someone else....I guess from what you are telling me that this is against the thought of most in the UK.   

I guess I'll agree to disagree with you on the topic.


Jeff


Just a few statistic via Google-fu:


"The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations:

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. 

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime. 

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime." 

"The percentage of the population that suffered 'contact crime' in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan. "

(http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/) for further details....


I'm done....I'm sure that the UK citizen is safe under the current policies.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2005, 08:11:12 PM by Professor »
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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2005, 04:33:40 AM »

Prof, when you have a pre determined belief in your mind you can easily find "evidence" to support it.  Why not look at evidence first, and then form your belief?

By the way, the "Hock isn't there to entertain" line was a little cheap mate.  It stinks of pettiness and, of course, no one would read my post and think that I was seriously suggesting he was merely an entertainer.  That was weak.

As regards "victims of violence"?  Our crime lists are full of victims who either go out for a fight every weekend in the same pubs with the same people (reporting it when they lose), or live with men who beat on them every few days (without leaving them).  But, if we are looking for normal, decent people who are attacked whilst going about their normal business?  Well, statistics don't break things down that far...... Yes, of course they are there.  But not in the numbers you seem so desperate to believe.  As an aside, they are still there.  Do you know why?  Because they have NOT been shot.

The whole firearms debate is a little strange.  People not only want the right to bear arms in their own country (which is reasonable), but they want people in OTHER countries to want it too.  That stinks of some  weird kind of insecurity to me.

Prof, get it through your head, there are no calls for the population in the UK to walk around with guns.  You may find some individuals, especially on forums like this.  But you won't find them in double figures, even if you asked all 60 million of us.

This is where you call us sheep again.  But sheep follow, whereas we go our own way. 
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2005, 07:29:20 AM »

Prof, when you have a pre determined belief in your mind you can easily find "evidence" to support it.  Why not look at evidence first, and then form your belief?

By the way, the "Hock isn't there to entertain" line was a little cheap mate.  It stinks of pettiness and, of course, no one would read my post and think that I was seriously suggesting he was merely an entertainer.  That was weak.

As regards "victims of violence"?  Our crime lists are full of victims who either go out for a fight every weekend in the same pubs with the same people (reporting it when they lose), or live with men who beat on them every few days (without leaving them).  But, if we are looking for normal, decent people who are attacked whilst going about their normal business?  Well, statistics don't break things down that far...... Yes, of course they are there.  But not in the numbers you seem so desperate to believe.  As an aside, they are still there.  Do you know why?  Because they have NOT been shot.

The whole firearms debate is a little strange.  People not only want the right to bear arms in their own country (which is reasonable), but they want people in OTHER countries to want it too.  That stinks of some  weird kind of insecurity to me.

Prof, get it through your head, there are no calls for the population in the UK to walk around with guns.  You may find some individuals, especially on forums like this.  But you won't find them in double figures, even if you asked all 60 million of us.

This is where you call us sheep again.  But sheep follow, whereas we go our own way. 

This is the reason that I use quotes so often....to try to break up an argument into small digestable/answerable parts....

The research (done by an independent agency with supportive quotes by the Home Office) contridicts your unsubstantiate statement that the UK is safer (see second quote by you below).  Please feel free to find other research that backs up your opinions....I would be more than happy to read it.   

There is a mistaken belief that citizens are safer unarmed.   This is a false statement in a world of goblins.....I've only showed in the previous post one small part of the research.   I'm a researcher by profession.   You've continued in your post to state that the UK must be on the right track because the UK is safter.....I'm trying to move this to an argument based on research. 

Quote
By the way, the "Hock isn't there to entertain" line was a little cheap mate.  It stinks of pettiness and, of course, no one would read my post and think that I was seriously suggesting he was merely an entertainer.  That was weak.

Here's what you wrote:


That's why Hock's experiences go down so well over here.  These things very rarely happen in the UK and are the stuff of films to us.  It is in your country where the bullets fly every single day.


You stated "these things very rarely happen in the UK and are the stuff of films to us.  It is in your country where the bullets fly every single day".  I merely provide a counter-view of your stated opinion.

I would actually suggest that Hock is not there to entertain UK citizens on the thing that rarely happen in that UK and the stuff of films, but to provide education and training to citizens to defeat two targets, the enemy soldier and the criminal.   This is a new insight for me.


Quote
  We are much much safer than you.


You made the above statement purely based on your misconception of the safety of a world without armed citizens.....these statistics (not my opinion) demonstrate that your opinion is considered by this particular research to be false:


"The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations:

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. 

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime. 

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime." 

"The percentage of the population that suffered 'contact crime' in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan. "

(http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/) for further details....


I'm done....I'm sure that the UK citizen is safe under the current policies.

Quote

I'm NOT arguing which weapons citizen should be able to CHOOSE to use to defend themselves - hand/stick/knife/gun.    It sound like self-defense taught in the UK should only be empty hands.....no reason to teach something to people that they have no hope of being able to legally use.     

MY OPINION (NOT FACT):  That the UK citizen cannot carry any weapons under current English Law is a sad state of affairs when published research (The International Crime Victims Survey), conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations and roughly 26% of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. 

MY OPINION (NOT FACT):  Rather investigating dulling the end of kitchen knives (see first post in the thread) the UK government should allow UK citizens to arm themselves (as they feel necessary) to level the playing field with the goblins.....a novel approach.


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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2005, 07:50:01 AM »

Hi Guys

I’m not quite sure where this thread is going, but it’s turning into an “I’m right, no I’m right” debate.  I think it is important to point out facts, rather than to focus on passionate opinions.

Bri, I respect your views and opinions, but the stats are staggering for rising gun crime in the UK.  2002 saw a record 35% leap in gun crimes in the UK.  During that year there were ten thousand incidents involving firearms recorded in England and Wales and these figures are growing.  There are as many as thirty thousand gang members and numbers are increasing daily.  The number of gang members aged under 16 has doubled since 2003 and the majority of gang related deaths are firearms related.  It’s no longer just a guess that one of these kids is tooled up with knives; it’s just as easy to get a gun now.  These kids have nothing to lose by carrying guns as the mandatory five-year sentence is outweighed by their own protection when dealing drugs or involved in other crimes where sentences are longer.

Innocent people are targets of crime frequently in Britain.  Many are victims of gun crime and a recent incident comes to mind where two girls were taken hostage in Reading.  One died from a stab wound to the neck and the other survived a gunshot wound to the head.  It is no secret to any of the officers of the Metropolitan police that the UK is becoming more violent than the United States.  This was communicated repeatedly to us in April when both Hock and myself taught over 28 defensive tactics instructors from all over Great Britain.

What’s the answer- who knows?  I will tell you that through my sources  that the next step is that police officers will be armed in the UK.  I know you disagree on this subject, but when was the last time public opinion counted for anything over here?  The Iraq War? The European Constitution?

Whether or not people want to arm themselves is subjective by whatever people feel is right or wrong.  The real truth is that legal or illegal the “good guys” are arming themselves already.  At Richard Dimitri’s last London seminar, he asked a group of 60 attendees if anybody carried knives as self-defence tools and over a third of the audience raised their hand.

Hang in there and let’s keep it clean.

Ciao

Joe
« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 04:00:06 PM by Joe Hubbard »
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2005, 08:03:53 AM »



Hang in there and let’s keep it clean.

Ciao

Joe


Yes Sir.
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