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Author Topic: A Pistol Disarm  (Read 12336 times)

whitewolf

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A Pistol Disarm
« on: March 11, 2011, 10:41:42 AM »

« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 11:12:43 AM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: another training vidio
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 11:12:18 AM »

Two quick questions, though. How does the guy at the car know the bad guy SO SUDDENLY has a gun to his head? How does he know it is a single hand grip and not a double hand grip?

Not that this might not be important iF IN A HOSTAGE situation, and if the victim already knows how he is being esorted around.

The gun is being removed in one of the four basic clock positions - the 6 - out of the 12, 3, 6 and 9 directions.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 02:36:40 PM »

I would imagine this is a training exersise-to do many reps till it is engrained - as for knowing if it is a single or double grip-cant answer that one- tommorow i will work on the 1/2 hand grips to see what happens-I do know he works with many law enforcement units-the clock method looks like it is being used almost universally these days-you should have patiented  it when u first started it-you would be a millionare now.

Seriously i use your- what i call +block the clock+ in just about every movement .

I dont know if you ever met Mr Weilkie-I know you guys would hit it off-his thought process about winning is the same as yours-

(I just got my shots-waiting to fly out if all is good)

WW
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Hock

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 02:59:56 PM »

But that this not something you will find out "tomorrow."

You will never know that when surprised from behind as in that clip. When someone suddenly feels anything on the back of their head, they do not know it is a pistol, and they do not know it is a pistol with a one-handed (right or left) or two-handed grip, as in that film clip.

But for hostage situations, when the victim might KNOW it is a gun at the back of his head, KNOWS what hand the pistol is held in, KNOWS if it a two-hand or one hand grip, that response is one of many that might have some potential to work (not like in the film clip).

When I said 12, 3, 6 and 9 I wasn't just talking about blocking. The right-handed pistol is taken out of the hand over the top (12), to the right (3), to the bottom (6), -and like this film clip, and to the left (9).

All pistol disarming is depressing and sucks. In most cases the gunman need only pull his pistol back and thwart so many, many disarms. They are all scary and difficult.

Hock
(and once again these short film clips of stuff, are always out of context and easy to find problems with-which is why I never want to do any of them)

gematriot

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 04:23:31 PM »

Quote
All pistol disarming is depressing and sucks. In most cases the gunman need only pull his pistol back and thwart so many, many disarms. They are all scary and difficult.

IŽll second that. And go one further.... Most of the Krav Maga classes I have seen, in Portugal, are WAY TO GUN DISARM CRAZY. They teach tactics that a "Special Operator" might be able to pull off, indiscriminately. IMHO, a dangerous approach to "putting people in the seats" at the KM class.
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 07:35:04 PM »


gem- good thoughts- couple comments- I thought the vidio was better than many i  have seen-continuous review of sanarios and actually doing them makes a student
aware of real life and how to react . Its easy to watch a vidio and pick it apart-what is needed is to try it under stress in the school and if mistakes are made retry...

When I attend Hocks seminars he shows a tactic-we pair off and do it-if there is a problem he or another instructor helps with the problem. Some work some dont-depends on the students size, age,prior training etc etc.

This vidio deals with a particular movement-and how to react to a wpn to head-

I might have told this next part before -i apoligize but here is . As a Sgt on the gate in Kuwait I had to approach a LtCol who was clearing his 9m in th air-I asked him to stop-he swung the barrel at me-i did what i  had practised a  lot and caught the barrel-took the  gun and almost wrenched or broke  his wrist-(i had practised the basic takeaway from various angles many many times-point is this-it happened quickly and i acted and saved myself from being hit in the face-so saying that - try the movement shown on the vidio. We will never know unless we try......more to come on next post-running out of room.
respectfully,  WW
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 07:49:23 PM »

Part 2-continuing- yes takeaways are scary-i am the first to admit that. At our school we do role playing-attacker comes up close-yelling or swearing at the victum-victim is to try to deescalate by talking-the takeaway is initiated -moving body to side as you grab wpn-we teach use of body as a ram as we take (in case he pulls back) Remember -if his trigger finger is on the trigger and you have left  hand over slide-other hand is punching face-then take away is done or he goes down due to caught finger---we then teach to use palm to barrel  other hand to pistol grip -stab the face-move back -tap rack  check each side-fire -no fire- its goes quickly.
I go to many seminars and schools-they do  not show any wpn defense at all-i use Hocks knife book a great deal-armed or unarmed sanarios-i just keep on trying them under various conditions- i.e. we practise wpn defense while on the knees against another on kees- i do not see that anywhere. Picked that up from comments in Hocks book-R/S WW
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 08:01:13 PM »

Sorry- I am on a roll i guess- What we have been working on is hopefully real world
situations-as Hock stated- vidos show aspects of a tactic-anything can go wrong when dealing with a madman/woman-if we do not roll play -and just punch kick swing at air then we do  not see -we look only- we do not listen  we hear only-
when a fellow student resists or comes at you more reolisticly then you learn to adopt
and over come (hopefully- heheh)
ok- guess i went over board- but - in all seeriouness-i have been in some scraps and i still am here-and hopefully passing on some info gained from great instructors.
Oh- Gem-where did  u train in Portugal- I attended training in a small town on the atlantic ocean about 1 hour from Lisbon- the instructor was a former Kick boxing champion- the students were police, security officers and some civilians. It was a good course- R/S WW
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Webby

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 07:07:51 AM »

I just teach people to grab the gun not the wrist they point it, anywhere but it you and smack the guy's face in with hand strikes. I focus on the palm heel to the nose as I have always trained with that strike as a main weapon.

I read a story ( might not have a grain of truth in it I must add ) about a police-officer who stripped a handgun that was stuck in there face while rounding a corner on routine patrol. There next action was to hand the gun back. Just like many people do in gun-disarm training.

It was an extention / part of the drill and had been learned as muscle memory ??
I don't know the truth of this, as I say it's something I read.         
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 07:31:26 AM »

I have stories like that also-I agree repeated strikes to face are effective
as for the palming the pistol and stabbing the face- thats just one option
we teach various counters so the student does not just say- I always have to do this---
Also- many civilians are not famiiar with "tap- rack-assess" so use of pistol as a club is one method to continue overcomming opponent. If a reader has a way that they think
works put it out here-thats what the forum is here for-to be used  as a tool to get proficient in some particular area,  gain knowledge, or pass on what they have in their tool box.
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noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 10:18:11 AM »

Outside of guaranteeing making the technique work why are the the bad guys always so nice? They don't seem to really want to put the good guy in a position or condition where they can't fight back.

We played with giving the attacker more creativity in how they approached the victim and suddenly the disarms had almost zero chance of working. The attackers were usually too far away to counter, to violent to counter, to fast to counter or caused too much pain (even at a low level) to counter.
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Hock

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 12:01:53 PM »

We've discussed this before but the BIGGEST misconception/mistake about pistol disarming is thinking that the guy

-won't naturally yank the gun back
-won't CHARGE the guy who disarmed him like a wild man.

Now, these things won't happen all the time, but can happen alot and cannot be ignored.

Hock

noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 01:09:28 PM »

But if we don't ignore those things, and many others, how are we supposed to look good on YouTube?

FWIW, the guy I train with usually doesn't do a disarm but turns the gun back on the guy who is holding it and helps him pull the trigger. Seems a bit faster than trying for a disarm.
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2011, 05:23:05 PM »

Noload-interesting -question do u train with a sims gun or other wpn that can actually fire to see if it jams -due to the fact when you come around and have the weapon with his finger in side the trigger guard he might not  be able to refire as his finger is either broke or bent to a bad angle-just a question-  WW
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JimH

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2011, 07:36:20 PM »

Scenario:
Attacker points pistol at head.
He is holding the weapon in his right hand,right index on trigger,he can hold one hand or two.
The victim parries the weapon with his left hand going from left to right,(Shooters weapon moves right to left across his body).
The victim steps in grabs the weapon in a two handed catch type grip,elbows attacker in the face once weapon is captured, and turns the weapon up from underneath,Barrel up, from floor to attackers center ,or down from above the attackers head down the center.

Most found the turning of the weapon from floor up to center was best.

Now I have done this with airsoft weapons,and depending on the grip of the attacker and the victim the pistol may fire.
Sometimes the attacker instinctively pulls the trigger when the weapon is struck and or grabbed and turned,sometimes the victims grip assists the attacker in pulling the trigger,(pure accident).

I have also done this with several real weapons,unloaded, one was an M-1911 target pistol that had been worked on and had a light trigger pull ,and this weapon clicked off a good percentage of times,then using a Glock,unworked,and it didn't fire as much,nearly not at all.

We do not know the workings of the weapon an attacker has,if worked on,in working order,or not working at all.
One thing that using the technique,training weapons,simms and unloaded real weapons showed was that one could pull off the move and not be shot,which is the most important aspect of the training.
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noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 07:52:21 PM »

Noload-interesting -question do u train with a sims gun or other wpn that can actually fire to see if it jams -due to the fact when you come around and have the weapon with his finger in side the trigger guard he might not  be able to refire as his finger is either broke or bent to a bad angle-just a question-  WW

The finger is likely broken and the rest of him on his way to meeting his maker. This guy is under the impression that anyone pointing a gun at his head is a deadly threat and treated as such. The gun can jam as the slide will be interfered with, but that's a problem you deal with after taking care of the first problem. I'm training with him tomorrow and will check on what else he's had happen besides what I've encountered with the technique.
It's really simple but I can't remember the name of the lock that makes it work. I'll try to find an example of it but it uses radial deviation to make it work.



« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 08:21:11 PM by noload »
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 08:28:59 PM »

OK ill check the forum ansd see what u  got out of trying various takeaway attempts-
I do know from experience that by grabbing the slide and initiatating the takeaway puts one ahead of the gunman. -WW
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Webby

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2011, 08:33:57 AM »

I had a dig and found the source of the story I mentioned it's in a book call Anything Goes by Loren Christensen.

Webby..   
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JimH

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2011, 09:27:26 AM »

If one were to use the disarm example I gave ,where we move the pistol from outside to iside ,across the attackers body and does the opposite,moves the pistol from inside to outside,then you almost alway have an index finger lock and break,(unless the attackers pulls the finger out ,or never had it fully in)
So Attacker has pistol right hand,right index finger in trigger.
pistol is parried with our right hand moving the pistol from our center to our left
We then move to catch the pistol with two hands and catch it turning it out and then rotating it under and up or we can catch and turn the weapon out rotating up ,over and down the attackers center.
This works to catch the index finger,lock and or break as it puts the index finger into an extended rather than flexed position.
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Hock

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2011, 09:43:59 AM »

If you grab the pistol and top (slide) it may render the semi-auto into the classic "one-shot or no-shot" operation. Key work being may. Possibly.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2011, 10:04:23 AM »

Great rsponses- gun takeaways are  hard to teach-we have to erase throughts from TV/moviesfrom the new student to wpns mind-then start from scratch-one important thing to do is explain the basic functions of a pistol-safety catch/mag release/slide operation/ in this way they feel more comfortable in holding the weapon- treat it as it is real-this is important-
I have never seen except once a instructor discribing functioning of a pistol-we do this and the student responds better. WW
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JimH

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 01:12:57 PM »

If one wants to cause a jam,then when an AUTOMATIC is used and grabbed,one or two hands,one hand MUST Cover the ejection port and hold on even if the weapon fires,(hopefully not in victims direction),this will cause the spent round to stay in the chamber or jam the feed  of a new round into the chamber.

See 1:23 of this clip
http://www.youtube.com/user/Anssi666#p/u/3/RcioAv0dW7U
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2011, 01:39:59 PM »

JimH-good clip-additionally looking at some of the vidios on combat hypkido on the side -some good ones there also-JMHO but i think that for a overall tactics course this combat Hypkido ranks way up there-combos of this /reactions from Krav/boxing/judo and knife
pistol defenses would really be a asset to someone who is in need of learning how to defend them selves-WW
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noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2011, 04:22:33 PM »

One thing I don't get about most gun disarm demos is the pose at  the end. After all you've assumed that the bad guy means you enough harm to attempt a disarm, but at the end the bad guy is out for the count and you stand off and strike the approved pose. Something is missing from the drill.
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2011, 05:22:07 PM »

Noload- good observation on the end  pose-what we show is keep on moving-scanning-
tap rack aim in -then point wpn or-aftr taking wpn we slam barrel into his face-this is to teach a strike if he charges forward (as Hock mentioned) and your wpn is jammed.(u cant turn and run)

The continued practise of takeaways is a topic all to its self-many thoughts on -is it good-will it work-etc etc---but training is needed so one has some idea of what can happen. 

Some will scoff at the next but sitting or standing in front of a vidio/tv and actor is holding a pistol and it is pointed at your direction-simulate taking it before he moves or fires it-you get sound, and movement-just a thought- WW
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noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2011, 07:06:41 PM »

We ended up doing some counters to being held at gun point and going over a bunch of what ifs and a few other things like gun disarm videos. One thing I noticed that in demos the victim always seems to have his situational awareness turned off but can somehow be surprised and pull off a disarm. The victim always starts out by just standing  there and the guy with the gun politely and without violence holds the gun within range of a grab. OK those things may happen but why not train with the bad guy and situation more dynamic which may make a counter harder or easier. Throw in an extra guy or two or three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMKYux7Vs6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7VAOAFATMg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcQY3NGtlq0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B97ssOplnJM
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 08:02:00 PM »

Noload- thanks for showing the various sanarios -u r right - we all got to role play a bit better-just standing in a pose and having  the weapon taken away is not good-tommorow  eve at class ill try some various ways-WW
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noload

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2011, 08:44:03 PM »

Have fun with it WW. Giving the guy with the gun a real goal to accomplish rather than standing around to let the other guy win always makes things more dynamic.
Personally I think a lot of folks get so caught up in doing a gun disarm that they forget to look at all the other things that can happen like having to go along with what gun guy wants you to do or he will shoot, recognizing when the distance is too far and other alternatives to a disarm like using cover.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zy37-_0LU

How about a scenario like this? Not all situations involve robbery or a car jacking or a bad guy in a ski mask. If you have enough people change up who has the gun (victim or abuser) and let the person figure out if they will stop the victim from shooting the abuser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QprrtFjQY4c&feature=related

Or one that involves other people? A hostage maybe, and let it play out a little.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jey1pBl8AY&feature=related


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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2011, 08:56:57 PM »

Those  3 vidios say it all-real world use of a wapon is not static -any things can occur and quickly- in the one where the victim is hit in the head-its allover as he is extremely dazed and probably cannot retalieate at all-we will do some various role playing- thanks- WW
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whitewolf

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Re: A Pistol Disarm
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 01:19:24 AM »


To continue- for a few  minutes we tried the one hand  disarm from  rear and then same with attacker holding wpn with two hands-basically movement went the  same either way.
head dropping and moving as in vidio-both hands to slide (one on each side)-gun prbably was fired at least once- body turning and your shoulder area ramming as you twist wpn following him back and finger is locked inside trigger guard -complete the movment as needed. Yes- very dangerous-but i feel  should be practised.
R/S WW
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