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Author Topic: Let's talk about shotguns  (Read 9587 times)

Chuck Burnett

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Let's talk about shotguns
« on: October 14, 2004, 03:57:09 AM »

What's your favorite boomstick?
Do you even include a shotgun in your toolbox?
Semi-auto or pump?
What kind of sights?

Do you try to find ammo/choke combos that deliver the tightest pattern possible or do you lean towards cylinder bore/full power ammo combos that have larger patterns?

Does your gun have a dedicated mounted light and if so how reliable has that light been in training? Do you pull the batteries and lamp module out for long shooting sessions?

Tactical sling, carry strap, or no sling?

Whadaya think?

Chuck

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Kevbo

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2004, 12:13:42 PM »

I not sure if my last post went thruogh so here it goes again.

My choice of boomstick is the mossberg 590. I like this shotgun for these reasons

1. It can hold ten rounds of 12 gauge without modification
2.It has a dependable pump action
3. a well placed thumb safety
4.It holds a decent pattern out to 25-30 yards before it spreads to much and I can stay on target at
   150 yards with slugs.
5.It has a bayonet leg that accepts the standard M-4 bayonet.
6.There are several affordable accessories
7.Price,$350- $425 depending on finish

I have a sling that holds 15 rounds and a stock saddle that holds 6 rounds
I like the thunb activated quick release light.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 12:16:48 PM by Kevbo »
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2004, 12:40:22 PM »

What's your favorite boomstick?  Mossburg...confusion proof safety

Do you even include a shotgun in your toolbox?  It's my back up weapon of choice.  I point it..say "back up" and they do.

Semi-auto or pump?  Pump...but have given serious consideration to the Benelli that does both

What kind of sights?  None.  Knocked them off years ago by accident and found I don't need them.  Have gone the same way with my handguns and then found out local SWAT and DELTA are doing the same.  (Obviously requires inordinate amounts of practise time)

Intersperse 00 with slugs.

No lights

No sling.  Brits discovered slings led to lazy weapon handling.  (exception I've seen is some of the SAS boys with slings on their MP5s for weapon transition during CQB.

Incidentally, SAS discovered during Borneo campaign that the best chance of hitting a man on the run in the jungle was with a shotgun using 00.  Range was about 75 yards.
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2004, 11:40:30 PM »

What's your favorite boomstick?   Wincester currently...Benelli

Do you even include a shotgun in your toolbox?    Absolutely.   But mine stays beside the toolbox in my truck... ;)

Semi-auto or pump?   The Benelli dual is THE way to go, but I typically use a pump for a cheap throw-around gun.

What kind of sights?   Bead.  Prefer a post and ghost ring..

Do you try to find ammo/choke combos that deliver the tightest pattern possible or do you lean towards cylinder bore/full power ammo combos that have larger patterns?

I prefer a combination of loads in the chamber.   Slug Slug...00, 00, Slug, Slug (far, close, far)

Does your gun have a dedicated mounted light and if so how reliable has that light been in training? Do you pull the batteries and lamp module out for long shooting sessions?

No dedicated light, but this is VERY important.

Tactical sling, carry strap, or no sling?

I don't like a sling on my shotgun - though I prefer it on my rifles.  I don't like transitioning to the handgun with a shotgun in my hand (why?).



Ninor, I think you and I found our next discussion....   Don't have time at the moment...but, it's on my list. 
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 12:04:49 PM »

Cool Prof...bring it on. 8)
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2004, 04:48:05 AM »

Cool Prof...bring it on. 8)

What kind of sights?  None.  Knocked them off years ago by accident and found I don't need them.  Have gone the same way with my handguns and then found out local SWAT and DELTA are doing the same.  (Obviously requires inordinate amounts of practise time)


Alright, questions first:   Why knock that sights off of your handgun?    This make absolutely no sense and can carry some very serious consequences in tight situations.   Do you like the barrel as a sight better?   Does it come down to a "type-of-sight" preference.

If you have time to aim....aim.   If you only have time for a sight picture....use is.   If you only have time for point shooting....pray on it.

Don't start by saying that the sight slow me down or get in the way and this way is quicker...if so, how much quicker?

Once you get past about 15 yards with a sight, patterns start opening up with a handgun a shotgun with slugs will begin the same...

Quote

No sling.  Brits discovered slings led to lazy weapon handling.  (exception I've seen is some of the SAS boys with slings on their MP5s for weapon transition during CQB.



So, lazy brits.   (just kidding).    Not having a sling makes weapons transition a real bear.   

I don't like a sling on my shotgun, however, I really like it on my rifle.     


Quote

Incidentally, SAS discovered during Borneo campaign that the best chance of hitting a man on the run in the jungle was with a shotgun using 00.  Range was about 75 yards.


Compared to what????   A handgun, BAR,....
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2004, 08:45:28 AM »

Re the sights on the handguns...This is being used by tier one operators who shoot upwards of 500 rounds a day.  They start at extremely close range to the target (i.e. one foot away) and draw and shoot learning to index by looking at where they want the round to hit and squeezing trigger...a variation of hand eye co-ordination.  I.e. you point where you look and you look where you point.  Once they're synchronized you take the target out to two feet and progressively work it out further and further.  I heard about it from a mate in a non existent unit and told another buddy in the local SWAT team I used to teach DT to and he said that they were now taping their front sights over and practising the same way.  Again, I have to stress this is for extremely switched on buggers using gobs of ammo all day practising extreme close quarter battle techniques i.e. room clearing, hostage rescue etc.

Disagree with you about patterns opening up at distances greater than 15 yards...depends entirely on who's doing the shooting doesn't it?

Re the no slings...Aussie army and brits do not (in regular line troops) use slings.  Check pics of them on patrol in Northern Ireland, Falklands etc.  Butt of the weapon is in the shoulder all the time so it can be brought to bear immediately.  The exception - as stated in my previous post - are hostage rescue and counter-terrorist units who practise transition drills from their "longs" to their "shorts" for speed reasons.  I.e. it's faster in a house clearing exercise to go from a jammed MP5 to a handgun than to try and clear the jam.  That sort of transition drill isn't likely to apply to regular troops.

SAS used to use the SLR (aka the FAL) in 7.62 (as did the rest of the Brits, the Aussies and the Kiwis etc)  They found their chances of hitting the guy on the run in the jungle increased with 00 in the shotgun.

Incidentally they dropped that weapon because they figured WWIII was going to be against the Russians fighting house to house.  In N Ireland they'd discovered the round was so powerful it would go through multiple brick walls so they wanted a smaller round that didn't have the penetration of the 7.62

Now read about the Americans in Somalia shooting the drugged up "floppies" with the 5.56 and watching in dismay as they jumped up and ran away despite being hit with multiple rounds.  The only one getting consistant one shot kills was an old Delta hand with an M1.  As I've said before (and some here have disagreed) the bigger they are, the harder they hit!

Back to the sight thing again.  It used to be accepted doctrine (and in some schools it still is) that the focus during combat should be on the foresight while the rear site and target will be slightly blurred.  What the more progressive buggers are discovering is that in combat you're going to focusing on the bad guy in front of you and not your sight..it's human nature and that's why these tier one boys initiated the change.

You should play round with it a bit.  I think you'll  be pleasantly surprised at how accurate it is.

Back to you amigo
N
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2004, 11:26:17 AM »

Re the sights on the handguns...This is being used by tier one operators who shoot upwards of 500 rounds a day.  They start at extremely close range to the target (i.e. one foot away) and draw and shoot learning to index by looking at where they want the round to hit and squeezing trigger...a variation of hand eye co-ordination.  I.e. you point where you look and you look where you point.  Once they're synchronized you take the target out to two feet and progressively work it out further and further.  I heard about it from a mate in a non existent unit and told another buddy in the local SWAT team I used to teach DT to and he said that they were now taping their front sights over and practising the same way.  Again, I have to stress this is for extremely switched on buggers using gobs of ammo all day practising extreme close quarter battle techniques i.e. room clearing, hostage rescue etc.

You said that you also took off your front sight.  Again, why knock them off your handgun.   Are you putting in this much time each day!? 

When you are at contact distance, no sight are needed.   I agree, but there are time that the distance is reaching out there and it necessitate the precision of sights.




Quote

Disagree with you about patterns opening up at distances greater than 15 yards...depends entirely on who's doing the shooting doesn't it?


No, it doesn't depend on who's shooting.  With the same person, same ammo, same gun:  The reliability of hitting the same hole over and over will decrease due to inconsistancy in the same shooters.    Sorry.  physics will back me up on this one.
 
Quote
Re the no slings...Aussie army and brits do not (in regular line troops) use slings.  Check pics of them on patrol in Northern Ireland, Falklands etc.  Butt of the weapon is in the shoulder all the time so it can be brought to bear immediately. 

Bad philosophy.  A trooper will not keep the butt of the weapon is in the shoulder all the time so it can be brought to bear immediately.   It won't happen.  Your muscle will not allow you to do it....the weight of the weapon is wrong.   The best that they will do without a sling (in the slow times) is carry it with their left arm supporting the rifle.     

When I hunt hogs in the Texas brush with an AR15 (where the pop up at anytime to run away or toward you with ill intention) I can't keep the weapon at ready 100% of the time....you just can't physically do it (start at 6:30 in the morning and go till 7:00p and try it).   

A sling can easily be adapted to be within inches of your shoulder and ready - I do this all the time when hunting hogs.  Laziness has nothing to do with a sling.  It has to do with the trooper.


Quote


The exception - as stated in my previous post - are hostage rescue and counter-terrorist units who practise transition drills from their "longs" to their "shorts" for speed reasons.  I.e. it's faster in a house clearing exercise to go from a jammed MP5 to a handgun than to try and clear the jam.  That sort of transition drill isn't likely to apply to regular troops.


I'm not buying it.   The regular troops that the US has around the world are working in the crowds, houses, etc. and need the ability to transition to a backup gun without abandoning this primary battle rifle.

Quote

SAS used to use the SLR (aka the FAL) in 7.62 (as did the rest of the Brits, the Aussies and the Kiwis etc)  They found their chances of hitting the guy on the run in the jungle increased with 00 in the shotgun.



In an "improved cylinder" barrel OO pellets will spread out about one inch for every yard of range traveled...

so at 75 yard...  about a 75" spread with 9 (.33") pellets

If you want to talk general sprad to cover all the basesy:   about 10 inches for every 15 yard (50" @75 yard)

However, consider the following:



I'm sure that the chance of a hit are probably better.  But the balistics will argue the against killing velocities at 75 yards...

I've shot the FAL....great rifle, but not one that I would want to shoot people on the run in the jungle - BAR would be a much better option...but I'm bias.


Quote

Incidentally they dropped that weapon because they figured WWIII was going to be against the Russians fighting house to house.  In N Ireland they'd discovered the round was so powerful it would go through multiple brick walls so they wanted a smaller round that didn't have the penetration of the 7.62

Now read about the Americans in Somalia shooting the drugged up "floppies" with the 5.56 and watching in dismay as they jumped up and ran away despite being hit with multiple rounds.  The only one getting consistant one shot kills was an old Delta hand with an M1.  As I've said before (and some here have disagreed) the bigger they are, the harder they hit!


I officially call all caliber arguments "out-of-bounds" - gentleman's agreement..this will bog everything down....


Quote

Back to the sight thing again.  It used to be accepted doctrine (and in some schools it still is) that the focus during combat should be on the foresight while the rear site and target will be slightly blurred.  What the more progressive buggers are discovering is that in combat you're going to focusing on the bad guy in front of you and not your sight..it's human nature and that's why these tier one boys initiated the change.

You should play round with it a bit.  I think you'll  be pleasantly surprised at how accurate it is.


I agree with the philosophy, and for the most part live by it.  But, the forward sight is a very helpful tool for precision work outside of 10 -15 yards that has no need to be removed.    It can become a hinderance from some shooters, this depends on the amount of training and their natural skills.  Some of the time you will soft focus back to the front sight...but it depends on the situation.

I was working steel on Sunday at 10 yards with a 4" plate behind a "hostages" shoulder.   Pretend that this was your wife of loved one (no offense meant) and you had one shot from a draw.   Would you like the ability to have a sight to improve your chances.   

I challenged each my four friends to this challenge this those words.   Each took more time (a split of seconds) to engage the target the with the first shot of the day...and concentrated on their sight.   All were good shooters all took the extra time...it counted.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2004, 12:24:11 PM »

Re knocking off the front sight...let me clarify.  Knocked off the front sight accidentally on the shotgun doing disarms one day.  Have since played round on one of my handguns by taking off a sight and practising that method.  It's been working for me...have no idea if the scoring system is the same in the great state of Texas but I shot a 98 last time (and that included two show off head shots before the instructor informed me they didn't score head shots).  I work in executive protection (now) so I'm concerned with shooting at extremely close distances.  On the rare job where we work with weapons we have longs in the car for the distance stuff.

Hmm physics backing you up...this would be the same physics that says a bumble bee can't possibly fly?  Sorry prof, I've seen some shooters who defy the rules you and I live by...but, I'm the first to admit they are the exception to the rule.  We had one Adjudant in the Legion who used to shoot on the 200 yard range with his 9 milly and he'd hit the target with every round.  Yep, he was aiming about 45 degrees up in the air to drop the round on the target and he'd obviously practised to pull it off but pull it off he did.


Sorry, they do carry the weapon this way...all day long.  Butt is in the shoulder, left hand is under the forestock exactly where it would be if they were firing though the weapon is carried down at 45 degrees across the body so it can be swung up when needed.  Actually got an email from a mate only a day ago who joined the Aussie army after leaving the Legion and he's bitching about the no sling carry...and many other things VBG


Re transitioning...that's because you're relating only to American troops.  When I was in the Aussie army and the Legion squaddies never carried handguns.  Only Sgt's and above had them and it was originally for shooting anyone attempting to desert.  So out of our 30 man unit 2 guys had pistols, the Sgt and his immediate superior.


Your perogative to call the calibre argument out of bounds but it was American troops who discovered this great truth in Somalia.  The locals chew Khat which is a mild narcotic.  The 5.56 would hit them, they'd jump up and run away or continue fighting.  (They probably bled out later but later doesn't help one much in a gun fight).  The M1 was dropping them where they stood with one shot.

Again, in Texas it's probably not much of a concern but in cold climates where capillaries shut down 9mm doesn't cause a big enough hole to cause much blood loss.  A .45 in cold climes is much better.  But again, don't get me wrong.  I believe shot placement is hugely important...a BB in the eye will do more damage than a .50 cal in the thumb tip...just, one has to consider variable such as narcotic use by joondis and extremely cold weather etc.

Will do some more research about the shotguns in Borneo.  Don't know what marque they were, whether or not they had chokes etc.  I do vaguely remember hearing something about a sabot round or some specially modified grape shot they were using in the day.

Back on the slings again.  You have to remember the tactical slings that we have available nowadays were not available in the sixties and seventies when the book was being written on how her majesty's troops would skirmish.  Army's move slowly...front line troops like the SAS are all over the latest stuff but the older regiments get bogged down with tradition.

Over to you again amigo
N




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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2004, 11:54:11 PM »

Re knocking off the front sight...let me clarify.  Knocked off the front sight accidentally on the shotgun doing disarms one day.  Have since played round on one of my handguns by taking off a sight and practising that method.  It's been working for me...have no idea if the scoring system is the same in the great state of Texas but I shot a 98 last time (and that included two show off head shots before the instructor informed me they didn't score head shots).  I work in executive protection (now) so I'm concerned with shooting at extremely close distances.  On the rare job where we work with weapons we have longs in the car for the distance stuff.


If you are ONLY concerned about car length shots - I'm sure it will work for you.  As I said, when you are at contact distance, no sight are needed.   I agree, but there are time that the distance is reaching out there and it necessitate the precision of sights.


Quote

Hmm physics backing you up...this would be the same physics that says a bumble bee can't possibly fly?  Sorry prof, I've seen some shooters who defy the rules you and I live by...but, I'm the first to admit they are the exception to the rule.  We had one Adjudant in the Legion who used to shoot on the 200 yard range with his 9 milly and he'd hit the target with every round.  Yep, he was aiming about 45 degrees up in the air to drop the round on the target and he'd obviously practised to pull it off but pull it off he did.


I'm not doubting that you can shoot at that distance.  Been their done that....but, your accuracy will suffer.   There is not a bullet or gun to shoot it that shoots in an exact straight line with no wobble, or drop that will allow you the same precision at 3 yards (holes over the top of one another) and hitting a human size target at 200 yards.   Wind, moisture, etc. play havoc when your distances move out.    I'm not arguing the man, I'm arguing the gun.    Sights help at distance.....

Quote

Sorry, they do carry the weapon this way...all day long.  Butt is in the shoulder, left hand is under the forestock exactly where it would be if they were firing though the weapon is carried down at 45 degrees across the body so it can be swung up when needed.  Actually got an email from a mate only a day ago who joined the Aussie army after leaving the Legion and he's bitching about the no sling carry...and many other things VBG

Re transitioning...that's because you're relating only to American troops.  When I was in the Aussie army and the Legion squaddies never carried handguns.  Only Sgt's and above had them and it was originally for shooting anyone attempting to desert.  So out of our 30 man unit 2 guys had pistols, the Sgt and his immediate superior.

Back on the slings again.  You have to remember the tactical slings that we have available nowadays were not available in the sixties and seventies when the book was being written on how her majesty's troops would skirmish.  Army's move slowly...front line troops like the SAS are all over the latest stuff but the older regiments get bogged down with tradition.



Just because they move slow doesn't mean that they are right.   Stupid is as tradition does when it disregards recognition of good solid tactics. 

Quote

Your perogative to call the calibre argument out of bounds but it was American troops who discovered this great truth in Somalia.  The locals chew Khat which is a mild narcotic.  The 5.56 would hit them, they'd jump up and run away or continue fighting.  (They probably bled out later but later doesn't help one much in a gun fight).  The M1 was dropping them where they stood with one shot.

Again, in Texas it's probably not much of a concern but in cold climates where capillaries shut down 9mm doesn't cause a big enough hole to cause much blood loss.  A .45 in cold climes is much better.  But again, don't get me wrong.  I believe shot placement is hugely important...a BB in the eye will do more damage than a .50 cal in the
thumb tip...just, one has to consider variable such as narcotic use by joondis and extremely cold weather etc.


You and I are in 100% agreement on this one.  However, I've been on a number of boards where this single topic has taken over the board.  It's like arguing religion.  I won't get into discussions on this area.  I've seen it been damaging to too many boards.


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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

arnold

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2004, 04:03:13 AM »

Practice with your weapon of choice and become proficient at it. It does one absolutely no good to use a weapon they cannot handle, nor produce any affect with. There are people who could not hit a barn with a bazooka, but can shoot a 380 all day. Better to be armed then not at all.
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CClifton

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2004, 10:25:15 PM »

Getting back to the shotgun discussion..........

I run 870s as my shotgun of choice (work and home). The 870 at work is plain jane (no sling, no light, 4 rounds of ammo).  At home, the 870 runs 1 round in the chamber and 4 in the tube.  I also have a buttcuff with 3 rounds of slugs and 3 rounds of 00 buck.  Also, Federal "tactical" 8 pellet buck is my load at hoome with 9 pellet being the load at work. Both guns have bead sights, though I'm looking at adding ghost rings and a Surefire forend to the home gun once I get some more money stored up.

When it comes to slings, I see them as vital.  I recently got approval to start mounting slings on our duty shotguns.  We are going to evaluate them and then make a final decidion.  I'm sure they will stay. They are way too benfical not to be present.  And contrary to some stated opinions, a sling does not breed laziness.
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2004, 03:09:48 AM »

Getting back to the shotgun discussion..........

I run 870s as my shotgun of choice (work and home). The 870 at work is plain jane (no sling, no light, 4 rounds of ammo).  At home, the 870 runs 1 round in the chamber and 4 in the tube.  I also have a buttcuff with 3 rounds of slugs and 3 rounds of 00 buck.  Also, Federal "tactical" 8 pellet buck is my load at hoome with 9 pellet being the load at work. Both guns have bead sights, though I'm looking at adding ghost rings and a Surefire forend to the home gun once I get some more money stored up.

When it comes to slings, I see them as vital.  I recently got approval to start mounting slings on our duty shotguns.  We are going to evaluate them and then make a final decidion.  I'm sure they will stay. They are way too benfical not to be present.  And contrary to some stated opinions, a sling does not breed laziness.

CClifton,

Open the shotgun up and you can take out the round limiter......keep it in the gun cabinet for when you go hunting.....
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

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CClifton

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2004, 06:46:43 AM »

a total of 5 rounds in the gun is fine with me. My 870 is a backup weapon at home anyways.  My primary longgun is an AR.
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Professor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2004, 01:26:25 AM »

a total of 5 rounds in the gun is fine with me. My 870 is a backup weapon at home anyways.  My primary longgun is an AR.

Just picked up a Carbon-15.   Great little gun.....for around the house.
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Deadeye Dave

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2004, 01:41:47 AM »

I know that this subject has been dead for a while but I see a logical paradox...


"I'm not doubting that you can shoot at that distance.  Been their done that....but, your accuracy will suffer.   There is not a bullet or gun to shoot it that shoots in an exact straight line with no wobble, or drop that will allow you the same precision at 3 yards (holes over the top of one another) and hitting a human size target at 200 yards.   Wind, moisture, etc. play havoc when your distances move out.    I'm not arguing the man, I'm arguing the gun.    Sights help at distance."


If the bullet or gun is intrinsically inaccurate, it is inaccurate whether there are sights on it or not.
In other words, sights are NOT making any difference to the "wind, moisture, etc." playing havoc at increased distances.
Sights help you to focus on the target, increasing the probablilty of hits, nothing more. They certainly do not effect environmental influences on the projectile.

Sorry, but logic errors make me crazy (i.e., illogical !) and there is no offense meant!


On the actual subject.. I have an old Smith and Wesson 3000 12ga, very similar to the 870, except that it will miraculously feed the Aguila mini-shells that I like to use in the house to avoid killing otherwise friendly neighbors by shooting through the walls.
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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2004, 09:32:32 AM »

I know that this subject has been dead for a while but I see a logical paradox...


"I'm not doubting that you can shoot at that distance.  Been their done that....but, your accuracy will suffer.   There is not a bullet or gun to shoot it that shoots in an exact straight line with no wobble, or drop that will allow you the same precision at 3 yards (holes over the top of one another) and hitting a human size target at 200 yards.   Wind, moisture, etc. play havoc when your distances move out.    I'm not arguing the man, I'm arguing the gun.    Sights help at distance."


If the bullet or gun is intrinsically inaccurate, it is inaccurate whether there are sights on it or not.
In other words, sights are NOT making any difference to the "wind, moisture, etc." playing havoc at increased distances.
Sights help you to focus on the target, increasing the probablilty of hits, nothing more. They certainly do not effect environmental influences on the projectile.

Sorry, but logic errors make me crazy (i.e., illogical !) and there is no offense meant!


On the actual subject.. I have an old Smith and Wesson 3000 12ga, very similar to the 870, except that it will miraculously feed the Aguila mini-shells that I like to use in the house to avoid killing otherwise friendly neighbors by shooting through the walls.

Welcom to the forum deadeye.
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treanor

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2004, 11:49:03 PM »

Neophyte needs advise.

I am interested in a small shotgun for home defense,
and, even more specifically, for taking in the motorhome,
where one might be in less frequented camping areas.

What gauge is appropriate? Short range effectiveness is probably my primary goal.
Someone at a gun shop mentioned that a 410 would be equivalent to a 357 magnum, is that correct? 

Initially, I thought I might be interested in a two barrel scatter gun or a coach gun, but even these seem too big.  I had envisioned something much smaller.
I recently saw riot guns in the gun store, with a pistol grip and without the stock, available in all the gauges and seemingly for sale to the public not only the police.

So....what gauge is appropriate, equivalent to a 357 magnum and above?
What size do you recommend?
What are your thoughts on riot guns for home defense
(especially motorhome storage and remote locations)
If riot gun is appropriate, any inexpensive brand recommended?

Not licensed to carry, and not interested in shooting a lot.  So you are advising a comlete neophyte who just wants to have weapon available if s--- hits fan.

Thanks
Dick
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2004, 03:14:40 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Dick.

Shotguns (or at least those you can own without obtaining a federal tax stamp for a short barrelled shotgun or Any Other Weapon) are not very compact weapons.
Even a .410 with minimal 18 inch barrel and a pistol grip is over two feet long and a couple of pounds. In that configuration it's probably less effective than a major caliber handgun.

A couple of the shotgun's strong suits are its expanding conical pattern and its ability to create multiple wound channels. Also, shoulder fired weapons are somewhat easier to fire accurately than handguns
A charge of buckshot is also somewhat less likely to endanger innocents hundreds of yards downrange than a single projectile.
Buckshot is usually the loading of choice in defensive shotguns and the 20 gauge is often considered the smallest size that allows a reasonably effective sized charge of buckshot.
I suggest you take a look at a youth model (i.e. shorter than standard  stock) Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge. This is a reasonably short, light, and inexpensive ($225 or so) shotgun.
Load it with #2 or#3 buckshot and it should deliver the entire charge of shot into a large handspan at 10 yards or so.

Pistol grip guns are compact, but keep in mind that the shotgun pattern is only a few inches wide at room distance. It is certainly possible to miss while shooting from the hip.
The youth stock can be fired from the hip or "underarm assault"position in close quarters but it also gives you the option of mounting gun to shoulder for guaranteed hits at longer distances.

Double barrelled "coach" guns can certainly do the job but why carry two rounds when you can have six or more.
Admittedly the pump gun will require a little more skill to run effectively but if you're not willing to do some practicing with any gun you acquire you may well be a bigger danger to yourself and other innocents than to the bad guys.

The shotgun is a great tool for defending the home (or Motorhome) against attackers who are coming to you. This assumes you will have time to access the gun and the skill and mindset to employ it.

HTH,
Chuck



 
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Trembula

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2005, 06:08:32 PM »

...was discussing ye olde scattergun with a friend of mine and he had the following comments which he said I could post here:

I have taken a few shotgun classes.  Some of the instructors were rather minimalistic on add-ons, others were full on Gear Queers.  I had a lot of the crap like butt cuff and sidesaddles, etc on, now all I have is a sling.  I do think a lighted fore end is a good choice but that's about it.
 
I shoot faster with the bead and I can hit man sized target COM past 40 yards so I don't have ghost rings.  I think that's a personal call. If you go the bead route you must have a shotgun that fits you though.  I prefer wood stocks to synthetic as you can carve them till they fit you.
 
I'm not a fan of the select load concept or the side saddle.  From doing a lot of shotgun matches, if you go dry on a shotgun you should draw a handgun.  You should have a reload in case everything goes to shit and  you don't have a handgun, but odds are you are in deep shit if you go through 7 or 8 rounds of buckshot and still have bad guys. Reloading a shotgun is s l o w.  You're about as screwed as a guy with a dry J frame and a speed strip in the middle of a gunfight.  I know the mantra is to top off the shotgun from the side saddle as you shoot, but I'll believe that works the day I see a video of a guy in a gunfight doing a tac load.

I don't think I will have the awareness or need to do a select load.  I do carry extra shells, on a belt holder attached to the stock with velcro.  In a pinch I can load from it on the stock, otherwise I can clip it on my pants and be good to go.  I have toyed with carrying all my extra ammo as slugs, so I could opt to select load with it,  or if i do run dry, I don't think anyone will bitch about being hit with a slug instead of buckshot.   .  Stuff to think about and play.
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spanky

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 09:45:39 AM »

Dan,

That's not exactly what I said but close.  ;D

I have an old retired Police 870 with bead sights loaded with slugs, I prefer a Mossberg 590 with ghost ring/post or the ultimate benelli autoloader but right now I'm poor.

The most important thing is to have it handy when needed and the next is that it be very reliable which most in the pump configuration have proven to be for the last 100+ years
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Trembula

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2005, 07:01:59 AM »

Hank...

This may come as a shock to you, but I think the list of people who are currently speaking to me includes more names than just yours...  ;) The reason it is close but not exactly what you said is because you didn't say it... hehe

Dan  :D ;D :D
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spanky

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Re: Let's talk about shotguns
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2005, 12:05:54 PM »

YEAH Right like we are to believe you have more than one friend  ;D
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