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Author Topic: Your Thoughts on This?  (Read 11194 times)

Keith Miller

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Your Thoughts on This?
« on: March 15, 2012, 10:49:04 AM »

Saw this one this morning. I guess it's being applauded as a perfect example of the effectiveness of BJJ. I think it illustrates how easy he could have been killed had the drunk had a concealed knife or firearm.

http://www.MixedMartialArts.com/news/391280/Ryan-Hall-safely-subdues-unhinged-attacker-on-video/
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Hock

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 02:26:49 PM »

ClusterF---k. A long drawn out CF.
He should have been instantly removed instead of dropped to the ground.
Tackling him was not the smart thing to do. But if your training is limited, then your muscle memory is limited, that is what you will do.

I guess someone called the police at the first sign of trouble?

Hock

F. Fuller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 02:48:42 PM »

Perfect example of BJJ? :-[

Having a fair amount of experience with BJJ and having a little knowledge of Ryan Hall, my first thought was that this was staged for video. The "Drunk" guy intertwining his legs in a "Half Guard" position suggested that this might be a friend or training partner.  Either that, or it was just grossly mishandled as a real confrontation. I don't really know.

In any case, based upon everything else we saw in the video, it made absolutely no sense to double leg the guy and force a close quarter engagement. Get him out of there, with a coordinated effort if neccessary... but get him out.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 02:55:01 PM by F. Fuller »
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jmech

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »

Wow. Just wow. Besides what has already been mentioned, with all the other people there, why was the ONE that the drunk guy had the problem with one that kept having contact with the drunk.  Keeping him there just kept adding fuel to the fire. He should have gotten away from it all and let the others deal with it. Also, one could argue that there was no justification for the strangulation to unconsciousness.  Lesser levels of force could have been used to remove the drunk from the establishment or restrain him until the police got there. There seems to be an over-reliance on "just choke him out" by some people, however, they don't realize that the act of causing someone to go unconscious, especially by use of strangulation, is looked at as a substantially high use of force in many places.

Just my $0.02.

Joe
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Keith Miller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 03:57:43 PM »

Well,

I don't know if you guys saw it on Facebook or not. But I was challenged to prove that this was a stupid idea.

The conversation took a turn when I said that it's a bad idea to be on the ground like that, what if the guy had a knife. I was then challenged by a BJJ guy stating that let him start in mount, and if I can get my knife out before he taps me...he'll buy me dinner.

I said, No. That's not how the confrontation starts. You don't get to pick your position...It starts with you in a chair & and me standing there. He said fine...it's still a challenge.

I said o.k., now all of his buddies including Ryan Hall ignored the other guy's friend. So I get a friend too...and he may or may not also have a gun, stick, or knife.

He again said fine! I really hope that he is joking. Because if he is serious...it truly represents a thinking disorder.
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noload

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 04:18:55 PM »

Why did his friends just sit there eating pizza while the drunk was mouthing off? Curious.
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Hock

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 04:58:30 PM »

Anyway...who is this Ryan Hall?

Hock

JimH

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 05:24:31 PM »

To me it was not a good move.
Not only could the drunk have had a weapon,but there were weapons of opportunity on every table in the form of knives and forks.

At one point after the take down ,when they are by the door and the drunks friend tries to get him out,the drunk reaches behind his back with his left hand ,and could have come out with anything like a knife or firearm.

I imagine the drunk knew who he was talking to as Ryan or at least a BJJ player,as the drunk had his shoes off and said near the start he could take him.

It is also always good to let a guy up and then stand there next to him,pretending to want him outside,when all you really want is to take the drunk down again for the camera.

Yep Great way to use BJJ as self protection.
(Against a drunk barely able to stand)
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F. Fuller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 09:39:52 PM »

@Keith Miller,

That guy is wrong pure and simple and unfortunately doesn't know what he doesn't know. Hopefully, he will never have to find out. It is a tremendous gamble to force a confrontation to a place where you have lost mobility for all the reasons you have stated. You may get away with it once or 100 times... That does not make it a good idea or set your tactics up as a desirable course of action for others.

I still think that there is something fishy about the video and that it may have been a setup. Ryan is a pretty mild mannered guy although a fierce, World Class Black Belt competitor in BJJ. Tackling some guy in a diner seems really out of character for him. Believe it or not, there are people who train BJJ who think this was dumb and not something anyone should actually do.

In December I presented at a conference where a Florida Wildlife Officer who had been shot numerous times after confronting what turned out to be a "'sovereign citizen" was part of the opening ceremony. The officer attempted to make an arrest when the suspect resisted. The officer deployed his expandable baton and ended up chasing the guy back to his truck. In his own words, the officer explained that he found out too late that he had "brought a baton to a gun fight" when the guy retrieved a .45 pistol from his door. There is more to the story, but the lesson is obvious already.

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gematriot

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2012, 10:15:10 AM »

From the commentary "below the video":

Quote
Ryan was actually worried the drunk might have a knife on him, which is why he never took his eyes off him, even while everyone else seemed to be taking the guy lightly. Ryan was staying calm so the guy didn't take him as threatening, in an attempt to diffuse the situation. He moved when he did because the guy reached back as if going for a knife. After Ryan mounted him, he realized the drunk didn't have one though and decided to give the guy another chance.

So far as Ryan knew he was deliberately tackling someone who was drawing a knife... Gotta say "NO!" :o
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 10:33:07 AM by gematriot »
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Canuk

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 10:46:21 AM »

yes bad tactics and poor choices were displayed. I also was wondering why his "peeps" were laughing as if it was nothing.

I guessing that this Ryan guy has no tactical training or awareness, just a sport application. But, he won, was not hurt and any crash you can walk away from is a good one. He may not be so lucky next time
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TLE

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2012, 12:31:02 PM »

WTF.  Just a complete cluster fuck. Get the guy outside, call the cops. Jeez. And what does this prove about the street effectiveness of bjj? Am I missing something here.
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Webby

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 04:57:03 AM »

I think you would have a hard time in court argueing self-defense if the guy had died. He was drinking and was choked out from behind and then left in a heap. If you must choke someone, at least put them in the recovery postion afterwards and maintain control with an arm bar. I've seen people jump up from being choked out. The brain just's re-boot's and they are off on a roll again like the energizer bunny !!     
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Canuk

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 07:18:28 AM »

Yup, choking out drunks is always a risky business
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2012, 09:59:31 AM »

WTF.  Just a complete cluster fuck. Get the guy outside, call the cops. Jeez. And what does this prove about the street effectiveness of bjj? Am I missing something here.

Those types think youtube videos prove everything, so any fight caught on video proves they are right.

On another forum one of them wanted youtube clips of Systema practitioners in actual streetfights to prove Systema worked as if enough practitioners were both stupid enough to get into streetfights ( which would usually be either a lack of awareness or intentinonally committing crimes) and at the same time have the forsight to have a friend record it on video.
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noload

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2012, 03:48:52 PM »

I think if I was in a fight and my buddy filmed it instead of helping out, I'd beat the crap out of him.
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Keith Miller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2012, 05:13:31 PM »

I think if I was in a fight and my buddy filmed it instead of helping out, I'd beat the crap out of him.

Oh Shit! Where's the "Like" button? LOL!
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Webby

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 06:35:52 AM »

I'd be shouting '' Put the xxxxing camera down and come and help me !! ''.
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F. Fuller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

Well said.  8)
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Jumonkan

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 07:54:42 AM »

I think its a constant problem constests like the UFC and NHB have set up in the Jujutsu world. Having been in the Jujutsu world most of my life I've seen the raise of Bjj, in that time I've seen one instructor who was and ex army ranger teaching his people to be aware that grappling should not be the first skill set you rely on. He would have two people attack them and it was interesting to see the realization set in that they needed to do something else besides go to the ground or submit. It took a few times but they eventually began staying on there feet and trying to some how subdue the first person to be at least a little free to deal with the second.

 I think Bjj is a good base art for self-defense but I just wish more people taught it like the ex ranger so there people understood the danger better.

James
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F. Fuller

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 12:58:17 PM »

I think its a constant problem constests like the UFC and NHB have set up in the Jujutsu world. Having been in the Jujutsu world most of my life I've seen the raise of Bjj, in that time I've seen one instructor who was and ex army ranger teaching his people to be aware that grappling should not be the first skill set you rely on. He would have two people attack them and it was interesting to see the realization set in that they needed to do something else besides go to the ground or submit. It took a few times but they eventually began staying on there feet and trying to some how subdue the first person to be at least a little free to deal with the second.

 I think Bjj is a good base art for self-defense but I just wish more people taught it like the ex ranger so there people understood the danger better.

James

There are a growing number of them, but as BJJ is primarily taught and coached as a sport or a pre-requisite for MMA, they are often marginalized as far as what is practical and effective for the average person for self defense. NHB, MMA and Sport Grappling put BJJ on the map and that is the only image that most people have of it and many people live vicariously through the victories of their role models. It is not surprising (although frustrating) that we would have such a disconnect.

I train and teach BJJ among other things... but I keep a critical eye on what should be taught for self protection vs competition or just rolling... and even I get blasted by people who don't know the difference.
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whitewolf

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 02:11:46 PM »

I just watched the vidio-I think Jmechs coment was among the best of the replies-I am not a BJJ expert -but- i would not have gone to the ground - as Hock says it was a cluster F#@**K-the group could have 
over powered him-held  him- and also the  family  should have been told to move out of the area.-JMHO WW
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Webby

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 02:22:25 AM »

The cage or ring is a competition with rules, first rule is two guy's fighting. In 90% of fight's I've witnessed there's been more than half a dozen guy's involved. If your strategy is to take someone down and fight them on the deck you completely expose yourself to the wrath of the others in the mix. The tactic must be '' I must not go to the floor ! ''. Non-violent bystanders will '' Stick the boot in ! '' if they see someone on floor. Watch the CCTV fights on You Tube, you go down in a crowd, you ain't getting up.   
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whitewolf

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 07:40:04 PM »

Webby-back on shore-WW
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Irrast

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2012, 04:26:56 AM »

That must be some good burger. Dave Jacobs couldn't be bothered.

It looks a little staged, IMHO. That's some bad acting by the drunk guy.

But I agree with what some of you have been saying. It's not a good idea to go to the ground in a fight like this. You don't even need to be a black belt at anything. When I first started, I just focused on mastering a few hand to hand combat techniques like elbows and knee strikes. But in the situation in the video, I think a hit to the throat is he most effective. It will incapacitate the drunk and shut him up.
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Canuk

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2012, 07:25:14 AM »

And maybe kill him at which point you get to master the art of not dropping the soap in the shower
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Jumonkan

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Re: Your Thoughts on This?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2012, 11:34:05 AM »

I think its a constant problem constests like the UFC and NHB have set up in the Jujutsu world. Having been in the Jujutsu world most of my life I've seen the raise of Bjj, in that time I've seen one instructor who was and ex army ranger teaching his people to be aware that grappling should not be the first skill set you rely on. He would have two people attack them and it was interesting to see the realization set in that they needed to do something else besides go to the ground or submit. It took a few times but they eventually began staying on there feet and trying to some how subdue the first person to be at least a little free to deal with the second.

 I think Bjj is a good base art for self-defense but I just wish more people taught it like the ex ranger so there people understood the danger better.

James

There are a growing number of them, but as BJJ is primarily taught and coached as a sport or a pre-requisite for MMA, they are often marginalized as far as what is practical and effective for the average person for self defense. NHB, MMA and Sport Grappling put BJJ on the map and that is the only image that most people have of it and many people live vicariously through the victories of their role models. It is not surprising (although frustrating) that we would have such a disconnect.

I train and teach BJJ among other things... but I keep a critical eye on what should be taught for self protection vs competition or just rolling... and even I get blasted by people who don't know the difference.


well that is good to know as I said he was the only person I have encountered that taught that way.

James
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