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Author Topic: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu  (Read 14386 times)

whitewolf

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 09:50:26 AM »

Ill start the discussion off by  saying i watched about 4  minutes of  it and shut it off-Over the years I  have taken  classes from a great many
"combat oriented teachers-all of  which advacated not going to the ground-strike fast and hard and continually till you over come the opponent-instructors like Michael Depasqual Sr/Jr-Gary Alexander/Howard Keyabu(green Baret-vietnam era)-and many on this forum-all of  which say never go to the ground if at all  possible.....which i agree with 100%-WW
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noload

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 12:00:46 PM »

First: Watch this and then the Gracie video. Separated at birth? You decide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsgVspgy184

WTF? The street isn't the same as sport, when did this happen? :o

Neither one of the lads in the video seem to understand what a street fight can be. Also I don't think they understand that controlling the distance is much more than just clinching so the other guy can't hit you.

Hock,
Has the Gracies ever contacted someone like you or Jim McCann to sanity check what they're teaching as street?
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Hock

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 02:28:57 PM »

Of course not.
I have been besmirched and ridiculed for two decades now by all BJJ-er's as being ignornant....then...then...ground n' pound has slowly...slowly...advanced...s-l-o-w-l-y- and its not over advancing yet...

Hock

JimH

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 02:54:18 PM »

They said in the clip
"Street Jujitsu is a TOTALLY different thing than Sport Jujitsu."

I thought a few years ago the GRACIE'S said the Jujitsu they used in UFC was all anyone needed for street or ring ?
Isn't that why the US ARMY uses the SPORT Jujitsu version for training ?
Why was the US Army not taught Street Jujitsu ?
Because the Gracie's didn't have any,they only had sport .

I love how being taught sport JUDO back in Brazil ,the Family changes it to Jujitsu and just keeps throwing out the term Jujitsu,Jujitsu,Jujitsu,instead of Judo,lol.

The video speaks of someone training with a family member who teaches Jujitsu and never learning the street and how Gracie Jujitsu has street combatives.
Well then how did Renzo Gracie get into a street altercation in NYC years ago and go for a shoot ,miss ,and crack his knee cap ?
Guess he studied with the OTHER relative too,lol.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 03:09:42 PM »

Well then how did Renzo Gracie get into a street altercation in NYC years ago and go for a shoot ,miss ,and crack his knee cap ?
Guess he studied with the OTHER relative too,lol.

Another question is why did the Gracie in Brazil who mugged someone with a knife use a knife rather than BJJ?  :D
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TLE

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 08:44:42 PM »

I was not aware of the mugging incident. I do know, however, that Royce Gracie routinely carried a knife becuase of those who wanted to "test" him on the street. But does that mean training BJJ is not valuable in in a street situation?
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 08:59:34 PM »

I do know, however, that Royce Gracie routinely carried a knife becuase of those who wanted to "test" him on the street.

That means he is thinking practically.


But does that mean training BJJ is not valuable in in a street situation?

No, but it does show that the "BJJ is all you need" or "MMA is all you need" mindset is misguided.
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Keith Miller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 01:50:54 PM »

But does that mean training BJJ is not valuable in in a street situation?

No. Unfortunately, to be a complete fighter you need to know a little of everything.
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F. Fuller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 01:58:24 PM »

Not sure how many here have experience specifically in BJJ. I kinda do. Been training in it since 1997 and teaching my own class since 2002. Got my Black Belt early 2011. I catch heat from the pure SD crowd who lump me in to the sport category and I catch it just as bad from the BJJ crowd who don't appreciate my criticism of the SD applications.

Rener and Ryron are gifted players and instructors for traditional "Gracie" JJ. They are athletes and competitors because that is the result and philosophy of their training. It has SD applications that are functional athletically if not always practical.

When I teach, I address all of it. Sport, MMA and SD. There are others that do the same, although if you go by what you read on the internet, we seem to be underrepresented.

The Gracies were certainly selling a "product" when they first put out the Gracie Challenge and later organized the UFC. I don't speak for them but it doesn't seem unlikely that their pitch had a "spin" to it that was designed to get people who wanted to learn how to fight to sign up at their school.

The Army went with GJJ for phase one because they wanted to revamp the all but abandoned H2H/Combatives program and update it with something they felt would inspire participation, fitness and esprit de corps (among other things) similar to what they had seen with Russian Sambo. In my seven years in the Army pre MACP, I received very little H2H training. From what I understand, the recruits get a great deal more MACP training than I ever saw with the old stuff. I don't have an opinion on the program, just making an observation.

I am not sure what calling it Judo or Jiu Jitsu really matters. Maeda taught pre WW2 Judo to them. I don't think it is written anywhere what he himself called it at the time. In any case, they called it JJ and not Judo and it was further modified through their "challenge" philosophy. Helio got smoked in a match by Judoka Kimura and had his arm broken but Helio was a tough hombre even if you don't believe his fight stats, especially for his size.

What has that got to do with Self Defense? Probably not even as much as comparing a NASCAR Ford to a four cylinder off the lot. Two different animals for sure. 
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JimH

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 04:57:36 PM »

I trained with Carlos Gracie Jr,learned no self defense,just sport.
What is the difference between Judo and Jujitsu ?
Atemi or striking techniques in Jujitsu,no rules.
Maeda taught KODOKAN Judo and called it such.
The Gracie's were told by Maeda to NEVER Teach what he taught them ,but they did anyway,called it jujitsu to seem more combat oriented.

I do not know how sport and self defense are addressed  and taught together as they are different,sport with rules,self defense without.
The clip even has the Gracie's telling us Sport and Self Defense are totally different.
As susch sport and SD cannot be taught together as one can not teach no rules while simultaneously teaching rules of sport.

The Army did not adopt the GBJJ system to revamp an almost abandoned H2H system.
The US Army Rangers Had a  hard line H2H system of Combat Judo,(judo with atemi) techniques with destructive strikes and finishes.
McCrystal was approached by larsen and told that Larsen could reduce INJURIES to Rangers in H2H training.McCrystal gave Larsen the Green Light and GBJJ was brought in to the US Army ,through the Rangers.
It then went Army wide,same as the Black Beret.
GBJJ to the Army ,with no strikes,and no finishes,just take downs and pins.
Now the teachings include kicks and punches,WOW,UFC allowable opening contact.

Again why was the US Army not taught the so called Self Defense ,which would have been better than sport ?
Because there was NO Self Defense,it was all Ground GBJJ and still is in the US Army.
Gracie's denied Maeda as an instructor until it came out who they learned from,and the ones who mentioned who taught the Gracie's were not the Gracie's.
Read Maeda's book.
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whitewolf

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 07:24:37 AM »

I also heard Larson is out of the program????? -I am out of  touch sense i am ove here in dubai but I would imagine that KentBob could fill us  in on the latest info as to the Army program-WW
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F. Fuller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 08:32:45 AM »

I trained with Carlos Gracie Jr,learned no self defense,just sport.
What is the difference between Judo and Jujitsu ?
Atemi or striking techniques in Jujitsu,no rules.
Maeda taught KODOKAN Judo and called it such.
The Gracie's were told by Maeda to NEVER Teach what he taught them ,but they did anyway,called it jujitsu to seem more combat oriented.

I do not know how sport and self defense are addressed  and taught together as they are different,sport with rules,self defense without.
The clip even has the Gracie's telling us Sport and Self Defense are totally different.
As susch sport and SD cannot be taught together as one can not teach no rules while simultaneously teaching rules of sport.

The Army did not adopt the GBJJ system to revamp an almost abandoned H2H system.
The US Army Rangers Had a  hard line H2H system of Combat Judo,(judo with atemi) techniques with destructive strikes and finishes.
McCrystal was approached by larsen and told that Larsen could reduce INJURIES to Rangers in H2H training.McCrystal gave Larsen the Green Light and GBJJ was brought in to the US Army ,through the Rangers.
It then went Army wide,same as the Black Beret.
GBJJ to the Army ,with no strikes,and no finishes,just take downs and pins.
Now the teachings include kicks and punches,WOW,UFC allowable opening contact.

Again why was the US Army not taught the so called Self Defense ,which would have been better than sport ?
Because there was NO Self Defense,it was all Ground GBJJ and still is in the US Army.
Gracie's denied Maeda as an instructor until it came out who they learned from,and the ones who mentioned who taught the Gracie's were not the Gracie's.
Read Maeda's book.

I am not sure how long ago or for how long you trained with Carlos Jr. His Gracie Barra organization teaches the traditional Gracie family Self defense  curriculum. Not the same emphasis as Rorion's group, but it is there. I never cared for the traditional SD curriculum much in any case and sought that information elsewhere. I started under a Carlson Affiliated school.

Jiu Jitsu in Brazil had a bad reputation for a long time because students would learn skills in a school and then use them to settle differences in Street Fights. They were thought of as "thugs" and the Gracie Challenge matches did little to change people's minds. It was a major PR move to re-emphasize the Self Defense curriculum and make it a requirement as normal people wanted to learn to "protect themselves" more than they wanted to "win" a duel.

As for Maeda? I don't have a dog in that fight and I am not here to defend the Gracie name. They have been self promoters since the start and at times been their own worst enemies.

Sport vs Self Defense is an eternal argument. A good SD curriculum (I think you will agree) will discuss mental preparation and survival mindset, escape strategies and priorities, vital targets, access to and deployment of weapons, first strike options, etc. A sport curriculum will emphasize what is needed to win by submission or points under tournament rules.

Self Defense strategy will normally dictate that the last place you want to be is on the Ground on the Bottom. The second last place you want to be is on the Ground on Top and tied up. In Self Defense there is no "Jumping or Pulling Guard" and a hold is intended to break something or put someone to sleep/ suffocate.

In my time in the Darby phase of Ranger school we had a few hours in the sawdust pit doing Judo. The Battalion Rangers I spoke to after that said they seldom did combatives. This was 1993 right around the Somalia events.

The plan for MACP has always been multiple phases with the grappling being taught first with stand up and stick and knife to follow. Now we see Army MMA competitions which has been part of their "evolution". It is not all to my liking but it is a major revamp from what they were doing before.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:41:01 AM by F. Fuller »
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JimH

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »

I trained with Carlson Gracie Jr in the early 2000's.
We trained Sport.

According to the GRACIE family members they elected to come up with a version of Sport to be called Combatives because people were tired of seeing the UFC go for 20 Minutes with men locked up on the ground.
The Gracie's were tired of new time limits and decided they had to shift gears and produce something for those who believed that Gracie Sport was all encompassing (for ring and street),which it was not.

Here are Gracie Academy Instructors speaking about the sport vs Combatives:
"The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy belt system is distinct from that of sport-oriented schools. Although the belt colors are the same, the belt qualification requirements are very different. Sport-oriented schools promote students based on their mastery of techniques that will lead to victory in a tournament setting. In most cases, sport belt holders are very comfortable in sport jiu-jitsu matches and controlled sparring sessions. However, when confronted by a larger and more athletic opponent who doesn’t play by the rules, they are often shaken by the unpredictable, violent attack and find themselves unable to respond."

"The Gracie Academy promotes students exclusively on their mastery of the techniques that will ensure their victory in a street fight. The Academy rigorously tests each student’s skills and reflexes at each stage of their training. The Gracie Academy Blue Belt Qualification Test, for example, requires students to demonstrate a high level of accuracy, efficiency, and reflexes in the execution of the most important street self-defense techniques. Because we feel that “street readiness” is our first and foremost objective, most of the techniques that we teach at this level are “street only”. As a result, a Gracie Academy “street” blue belt will win on the street but may not fare well in a sport jiu-jitsu match. On the other hand, a sport jiu-jitsu blue belt will perform well on the mat, but may have difficulty dealing with unpredictable and chaotic circumstances of a real fight."

If the above is true,why then does the Gracie combatives series,for the Street,(36 lessons),have well over 2/3 rds of the lessons centered around the ground work ?

More from the Gracie Academy instructors
The Gracie Academy discounts striking. In one of the philosophy videos on the thirteenth DVD (also up on Gracie Unviersity), Rener has this to say (see also the Mindset Minute on Lesson Six):

"People often wonder whether or not they need to learn a striking art to complement their techniques of Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and the answer is no. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a complete art in itself."
"The strategy of Gracie Jiu Jitsu is to avoid getting knocked out at all costs, control your opponent, and then submit them with a leverage based strategy."
"The reason we advise against someone learning how to use strikes to win in a real street fight is because if you're fighting someone, who is much taller, much heavier and much stronger than you, your attempt to strike them as a means of victory will put you in the range to get punched. Every time you throw a punch, you're at risk of getting knocked out in return."
"So because of that, its important that when you get into a fight, your mindset and your strategy is solid, and you're very well aware of what you want to do. You don't veer on that, so learning another art could possibly conflict with that."

Now with the US  Army:
It is Great that the system set up by Larsen had multiple levels,each to build upon the other,Ground,to stand up,to knife and stick use and performance while wearing SOME Gear.
The reality is how many of the Soldiers serving have gone beyond the Ground ?
Now ,supposedly they are including the stand up phase,strikes and kicks as seen and allowed in the UFC.
Some giant leap forward,lol.

once the Combatives program was adopted by the rangers and then Army wide it was Larsen's hope,and the Gracie's that the program would generate more interest in GJJ and to use the US Army program to try and find Fighters to compete and advance the GJJ/Larsen name.

The system is not made to be the H2H program of the US Army,it is to create a fighting mindset,as Larsen said ,If we can develop a Fighting Mind Set then the soldiers can use weapons and empty hands to deal with the enemy.Though the system never had finishes.

This is what was before Larsen's Version of Combatives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytwvkio3FQ&feature=relmfu
(2:25)
This is combat judo,with strikes and FINISHES,not pins and tap outs.
Injuries with this type program brought about a change to sport and submissions,with no finish,except to call your buddy for help.lol


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F. Fuller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 03:56:51 PM »

I trained with Carlson Gracie Jr in the early 2000's.
We trained Sport.

According to the GRACIE family members they elected to come up with a version of Sport to be called Combatives because people were tired of seeing the UFC go for 20 Minutes with men locked up on the ground.
The Gracie's were tired of new time limits and decided they had to shift gears and produce something for those who believed that Gracie Sport was all encompassing (for ring and street),which it was not.

Here are Gracie Academy Instructors speaking about the sport vs Combatives:
"The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy belt system is distinct from that of sport-oriented schools. Although the belt colors are the same, the belt qualification requirements are very different. Sport-oriented schools promote students based on their mastery of techniques that will lead to victory in a tournament setting. In most cases, sport belt holders are very comfortable in sport jiu-jitsu matches and controlled sparring sessions. However, when confronted by a larger and more athletic opponent who doesn’t play by the rules, they are often shaken by the unpredictable, violent attack and find themselves unable to respond."

"The Gracie Academy promotes students exclusively on their mastery of the techniques that will ensure their victory in a street fight. The Academy rigorously tests each student’s skills and reflexes at each stage of their training. The Gracie Academy Blue Belt Qualification Test, for example, requires students to demonstrate a high level of accuracy, efficiency, and reflexes in the execution of the most important street self-defense techniques. Because we feel that “street readiness” is our first and foremost objective, most of the techniques that we teach at this level are “street only”. As a result, a Gracie Academy “street” blue belt will win on the street but may not fare well in a sport jiu-jitsu match. On the other hand, a sport jiu-jitsu blue belt will perform well on the mat, but may have difficulty dealing with unpredictable and chaotic circumstances of a real fight."

If the above is true,why then does the Gracie combatives series,for the Street,(36 lessons),have well over 2/3 rds of the lessons centered around the ground work ?

More from the Gracie Academy instructors
The Gracie Academy discounts striking. In one of the philosophy videos on the thirteenth DVD (also up on Gracie Unviersity), Rener has this to say (see also the Mindset Minute on Lesson Six):

"People often wonder whether or not they need to learn a striking art to complement their techniques of Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and the answer is no. Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a complete art in itself."
"The strategy of Gracie Jiu Jitsu is to avoid getting knocked out at all costs, control your opponent, and then submit them with a leverage based strategy."
"The reason we advise against someone learning how to use strikes to win in a real street fight is because if you're fighting someone, who is much taller, much heavier and much stronger than you, your attempt to strike them as a means of victory will put you in the range to get punched. Every time you throw a punch, you're at risk of getting knocked out in return."
"So because of that, its important that when you get into a fight, your mindset and your strategy is solid, and you're very well aware of what you want to do. You don't veer on that, so learning another art could possibly conflict with that."

Now with the US  Army:
It is Great that the system set up by Larsen had multiple levels,each to build upon the other,Ground,to stand up,to knife and stick use and performance while wearing SOME Gear.
The reality is how many of the Soldiers serving have gone beyond the Ground ?
Now ,supposedly they are including the stand up phase,strikes and kicks as seen and allowed in the UFC.
Some giant leap forward,lol.

once the Combatives program was adopted by the rangers and then Army wide it was Larsen's hope,and the Gracie's that the program would generate more interest in GJJ and to use the US Army program to try and find Fighters to compete and advance the GJJ/Larsen name.

The system is not made to be the H2H program of the US Army,it is to create a fighting mindset,as Larsen said ,If we can develop a Fighting Mind Set then the soldiers can use weapons and empty hands to deal with the enemy.Though the system never had finishes.

This is what was before Larsen's Version of Combatives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytwvkio3FQ&feature=relmfu
(2:25)
This is combat judo,with strikes and FINISHES,not pins and tap outs.
Injuries with this type program brought about a change to sport and submissions,with no finish,except to call your buddy for help.lol

Hi Jim,

Good points. Just a couple of my own...

From my understanding, the Gracie Combatives is not supposed to be a "version of sport". It is actually modeled after the Gracie GRAPLE Law Enforcement program which does not include freestyle "rolling" as you would typically see in a BJJ class. "Combatives" was supposed to give them an entry level program to sell to instructors who wanted to add "Gracie JJ" to their curriculum (and yes, to their storefront windows, signs and diploma walls). Combatives students don't "roll" as part of their curriculum for advancement although they are supposed to do some ambush drills under "realistic resistance" to develop their technique and timing. There are plenty of youtube videos out there of student videos submitted for rank advancement to the Gracie Academy. The whole "Blue Belt" promotion thing was a major hot spot when they first decided to do it as so many BJJ students train hard for 1-3 years and grind out the mat time to get a promotion and the Gracies decided that Blue Belt could be earned by video and without actually sparring.

I don't know why the Gracie Combatives program is designed the way it is other than it seemed like a fresh idea coming from Ryron and Rener who are both young, energetic and likeable guys. It seems to have breathed new life into the Gracie Self Defense program as it's own component whatever the case.

Again, I don't speak for the Gracie family. I got my Blue in 1998 from a Carlson Black Belt and many years later from a Nova Uniao/ American Top Team instructor, got my Black. In between, I trained with SBGi and a host of other camps that gave me the perspective I have now. I have never been a big fan of the Gracie SD curriculum as I said before and I really believe that the one on one fighting success in the early UFC events was simply a vehicle to sell a "Proven" system to people who wanted and could afford it  ;D.

Not gonna argue where MACP is going. If only by participation, it seems that it is a leap forward from the past. The content, I am sure will continue to evolve and we end up with a WW2 combatives worthy system. Who knows?  ::)

Good discussion.
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Kentbob

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 08:22:29 PM »

Well, he's retired now, so in that sense he is out.  He still work around Ft. Benning, and he still manages fighters from the team down there at Ft. Benning, and takes them to competitions.  If he were still in?  Well, you just can't stay in one place forever in the Army.  Eventually you have to move on, and so someone would have come in behind Larsen eventually no matter what.

Kent

I also heard Larson is out of the program????? -I am out of  touch sense i am ove here in dubai but I would imagine that KentBob could fill us  in on the latest info as to the Army program-WW
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JimH

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2012, 09:57:44 PM »

F Fuller,
I also enjoy a good discussion,and appreciate your points.
I wish you the best in training and in your teachings.
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whitewolf

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 09:20:18 AM »

Jih-H the vidio you put  up about  ranger training before combatatives-excellent- WW
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2012, 11:00:49 AM »

There are several issues here.

One is the "BJJ vs everything else" issue.  That is the Gracies' fault.  They were the ones with all the negative marketing in the 1990s.  By that I mean actual systems using negative marketing, not companies selling videos like TRS.  The negative stigma they created will take a while to die down.

I'm not anti-BJJ or anti-Gracie, I just don't buy into the hype that it is the Supreme Ultimate System.  While this type of hype often comes from posters on forums, in the Gracies' case it comes from the family as well.  That often turns people off, and not just with BJJ.  I know Carl Cestari was a highly respected combatives instructor, but the cult-like mentality his followers had on defense-related forums was a big negative for me.

Another is a strange debate that spans the internet MA boards which is really two different issues.  This debate often goes like this:

Side 1:  BJJ/MMA is the only useful system!

Side 2:  No, it is not.

Side 1:  So you're saying that grappling isn't important?  That you shouldn't learn any grappling?

Side 2:  No, I'm saying it isn't the only thing to train in.




Another is actual defense.  Rorion's experiencee shows what others have been saying about hard surfaces in the real world, for example.  Royce has written articles admitting that GJJ wasn't good for multiple opponenets but then says no system will work.  I personally know people in Karate, Kung Fu, and Thai Boxing who fought multiple attackers and won.



On the issue of the Army, it is a silly argument that BJJ is better than other systems because they actually train it and won't use other systems.  Tae-Bo would be better than BJJ if they used Tae-Bo and refused to use BJJ.  A Lorcin would be better than a Glock if they refused to issue Glocks and only issued Lorcins.  That's an issue of what they want to do, not how suitable a system is.

I don't see the Jujutsu/Judo argument as as big a deal as others might.  At the time the Gracies started training, at least in the US, people really didn't know much about Japanese systems and used "Judo" and "Jujutsu" interchangably.  I would have a problem if modern people did that since they should know better.  "Judo" would be more proper but considering the time period "Jujutsu" is forgivable.


Regarding the DVD set, last time I checked (when the first threads on the topic were posted here) it was 13 DVDs for around $120.00.  That's actually very cheap, less than $10.00 a DVD.  Issues of it being a complete CQC system or not aside, has anyone seen it and if so is it a good ground graplling course?


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F. Fuller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 07:58:08 AM »

There are several issues here.

One is the "BJJ vs everything else" issue.  That is the Gracies' fault.  They were the ones with all the negative marketing in the 1990s.  By that I mean actual systems using negative marketing, not companies selling videos like TRS.  The negative stigma they created will take a while to die down.

I'm not anti-BJJ or anti-Gracie, I just don't buy into the hype that it is the Supreme Ultimate System.  While this type of hype often comes from posters on forums, in the Gracies' case it comes from the family as well.  That often turns people off, and not just with BJJ.  I know Carl Cestari was a highly respected combatives instructor, but the cult-like mentality his followers had on defense-related forums was a big negative for me.

Another is a strange debate that spans the internet MA boards which is really two different issues.  This debate often goes like this:

Side 1:  BJJ/MMA is the only useful system!

Side 2:  No, it is not.

Side 1:  So you're saying that grappling isn't important?  That you shouldn't learn any grappling?

Side 2:  No, I'm saying it isn't the only thing to train in.




Another is actual defense.  Rorion's experiencee shows what others have been saying about hard surfaces in the real world, for example.  Royce has written articles admitting that GJJ wasn't good for multiple opponenets but then says no system will work.  I personally know people in Karate, Kung Fu, and Thai Boxing who fought multiple attackers and won.



On the issue of the Army, it is a silly argument that BJJ is better than other systems because they actually train it and won't use other systems.  Tae-Bo would be better than BJJ if they used Tae-Bo and refused to use BJJ.  A Lorcin would be better than a Glock if they refused to issue Glocks and only issued Lorcins.  That's an issue of what they want to do, not how suitable a system is.

I don't see the Jujutsu/Judo argument as as big a deal as others might.  At the time the Gracies started training, at least in the US, people really didn't know much about Japanese systems and used "Judo" and "Jujutsu" interchangably.  I would have a problem if modern people did that since they should know better.  "Judo" would be more proper but considering the time period "Jujutsu" is forgivable.


Regarding the DVD set, last time I checked (when the first threads on the topic were posted here) it was 13 DVDs for around $120.00.  That's actually very cheap, less than $10.00 a DVD.  Issues of it being a complete CQC system or not aside, has anyone seen it and if so is it a good ground graplling course?

In reference to the Gracie family... I think that at times, they have been their own worst enemies in their self promotion. They are amazing at  what they do and in a one on one, consentual unarmed contest  ;D, they have been quite formidable. Their selling point is the pure athletic performance of their fighters in events, there should be no argument. It's what put them on the map.

As a BJJ Black Belt, I agree with your assessment of the debate.

I know people as well who have had no training to speak of and managed to fight off mulltiple attackers. Not speaking for Rorion, but the whole multiple thing can turn into a pretty bizarre argument with people thinking that they can choreograph their event like a demo or movie and it will somehow work, so I usually lean towards the "stay aware, prepare for the worst and don't let your ego keep you in the fight longer than it takes you to safely disengage and escape" philosophy.

I don't think the Tae Bo reference is a good analogy but I understand your point. Mine was that the old program was largely ignored except by some specialized units in the Army. The new program (good, bad or otherwise) seems to have tapped into an athletic, competitive vein that has given them a wave of enthusiasm among the younger crowd who follow MMA a little closer than us older dogs.
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F. Fuller

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2012, 11:15:48 AM »

F Fuller,
I also enjoy a good discussion,and appreciate your points.
I wish you the best in training and in your teachings.

Thanks, Jim.

Likewise to you.

Fletch
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Kentbob

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2012, 11:46:42 PM »

Part of the key in the new "system" is safety.  Yeah, dudes still get concussed at the actual combatives course, but for unit training, it's a much safer system because of the lack of strikes.  Commanders like this, as the majority of officers today are highly risk averse.  Also, the Army Jiu Jitsu program can be done nearly anywhere, meaning you don't have to have a special facility, or lots of gear.  This, combined with the MMA-style presentation and training, and yes you have a program that appeals to the younger soldiers, and the commanders.  It doesn't help that every graduate of the program seems to come out brainwashed into the "we don't need h2h to win the war, we just need to hang on until our buddy gets there" mentality, and they try to pass this on.  The people in the middle, platoon leaders, platoon sergeants, and some people with actual fighting experience just shake their heads and go through the motions. 

Occasionally I piss off the instructors by showing a better or easier way to do something, or variations to a technique.  One of these days, I'm going to sneak a rubber knife into a battalion combatives competition, wrap someone in my guard, and start shanking the hell out of them.

Kent
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whitewolf

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »

Kent  the  part about sneaking in a rubber  knife is great-i did that at a
self  defense class when we were working on floor techniques-i had the student (who  was a pretty strong guy) get me on the floor and then i pulled the knife and it really made a impression when i repeatedly stuck  him- WW
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noload

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 03:52:42 PM »

The UFC guys in this video train in more dimensions than most BJJ guys and they still have canyon sized gaps in their training compared to the MCMAP trainers. No awareness of threats, no use of their environment and no controlling the distance. But the UFC guys are in incredible shape and could quickly ramp up in the additional H2H skills they'd need.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhxDQgbuZ3o
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TLE

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2012, 09:03:11 PM »

Kentbob-agreed about bjj being relatively safe. It is one aspect of bjj I enjoy. You can go full bore and not get beat to shit. You or your opponent tap out. You can't do that in boxing, kick boxing, my tai , hell, even tae kwon do. You can in judo or wrestling, but those aren't glamorous right now.
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VicMackey

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Re: Street Jiu-Jitsu vs. Sport Jiu-Jitsu
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2012, 05:56:49 PM »

Ever since 2007, it's all been street jujitsu since then. I only practice the ones that don't compromise my mobility and situational awareness. I also like to mix up the sweeps with stomps or finishing strikes. I love to also integrate knee/groin strikes when up close as well as gouging techniques. If on the ground with the opponent on top, I only know enough moves to help me get back on my feet as possible. No wasting time with ankle/leg locks while on the ground. But I tell you one thing. If I end up knocked down on the ground, I am not going to use any jujitsu and would rather strike the groin and the leg joints with kicks first. This is my take on street jujitsu.
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