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Author Topic: A Gracie says  (Read 7078 times)

RevBodhi

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 03:43:14 PM »

Spoken like a true-blue, Thoroughbred spoiled brat athlete who never had to engage enemy insurgents wanting to evict him from their country at bayonet, AKM, (sometimes SKS), 82mm, 122mm Soviet Rockets and RPG-7s range...sorry...I digressed into my personal loathing of anything BJJ or Gracie Fabricated Commercialism. Mr. Hochheim you can expel me if you so like, from this forum.
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Dawg

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 07:21:14 AM »

I'm not surprised at all by Royce's statement; I am very surprised to have learned that Relson feels the opposite. He wants his students to focus more on the self defense applications of BJJ instead of competition. I don't have a press release of this statement, but I have heard this directly from one of his instructors many times over the last couple of years.

I find the whole situation both amusing and entertaining. If folks want to only work in their "pure" art, whatever it is, more power to them. I think I'll continue to steal shamelessly from everyone I train with and further develop my ability to deal with the violence I am most likely to face on a daily basis. My search for tools, tactics and training methodology will continue to focus on the "essence of combat" and becoming the "seamless fighter." A particular system or style will remain (primarily) just a vehicle to get me to my destination at the time or something I keep for the simple reason that I enjoy the hell out of it! (I don't think I'll be using my espada y daga, sword or double-machete training anytime in the near future!)

"Gracie Fabricated Commercialism"; never heard that one before! But, I know and train with a lot of good Gracie folks and will continue to do so as long as they remain an effective vehicle for me to work, hone, and test my various skill sets against skilled ground-fighting opponents.

I find it hard to "loathe" anybody that trains just as hard (or harder!) than I do, regardless of their personal brand of voodoo. I do feel bad for folks that are close-minded to anything outside of their own particular system, but to each his own.  ;D
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whitewolf

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 01:58:33 PM »

To Rev-JMHO-A instuctor in  BJJ   or any art for that matter does  not need to  be a war  hero to  pass on techniques   that  may save  someones hide-I.E. a  former Bouncer   who  faced a borken   bottle, a store  detective who in the apprehension of a thief falls through a plate glass window, a security contractor in Kuwait    who has to  respond  without backup to a domestic  violence situation a fireman who walks up the stairs when  the victims are  comming  down---combat  is faced  daily by many martial  artist instructors-again  just  my humble  opinion
WW
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arnold

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 05:44:08 AM »

Dawg "stole" from me, why Who would have thought anybody in their "right" mind would steal any of the mind numbing madness I dish out!
 ::)
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Dawg

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 12:20:53 PM »

I have indeed stolen from you, Uncle Arnold! I'm still working on my smirk when I'm dishing out some of your "mind numbing madness", but I've got my evil chuckle down pretty good these days!

I would take this opportunity to thank you for all the pain you shared with me the last time we trained, but I wouldn't want you to try to out do yourself the next time. Despite rumors to the contrary, I am NOT unbreakable! ;)
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RevBodhi

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 08:59:29 AM »

BJJ and GracieJJ is nothing more than Judo with an emphasis in Newaza. I remember Rorian when he and his Gracie horde lived in Denver. I lived in Colorado Springs at the time. Early 1990s.

Rorian was attempting to make a name for himself then. At the time I was associated with a group created by the former Olympic Judo Coach, and Rorian had offered a friendly challenge to this coach. Rorion was a slick dude, being a former attorney in Brazil, and had this coach sign a disclosure wavier that no matter how the match turned out the coach could not use the event in any way to promote himself and his group. I think Rorion knew something then.

Well, the former Olympic-Judo coach annihilated Rorion from the stand up game (remember, Helio made Gracie Jiujutu because he was so small and just lousy at the stand up game) slamming Rorion to the mat with a textbook Uchimata, and then proceeded to pin Rorion with a Tate-shiho-gatame. Rorion could do nothing to get out. In Judo, a 30 second pin is a win. The coach had total head and hip control, and once again the infamous Gracie BS (this time secured with so-called legal papers) of not tapping out to this former Olympic Judo coach's pin, making the match a draw. This was something Rorion no doubt learned from his pappy after Masahiko Kimura choked out and dislocated Helio's shoulder with ude-garami. Kimura stated in an interview that he didn't want to kill Helio, but because Helio refused to tap out, Helio's camp made it draw--even after Kimura dominated Helio from start finish. Some say that's toughness on Helio's part. To me, that's a piss-poor attitude over losing--not toughness). As far as Rorion's match with the former Olympic Judo Coach? I know this, as I was there at the match, and watched with my own eyes. BS was the word that kept ruminating through the Judo spectators. That no tap rule was never discussed pre-match.

I bitched the coach out for signing the document, but Rorion wouldn't go through with it unless the former coach signed it. And this former Olympic Judo coach really wanted to "fight" this brazen, up-and-coming new JIUJITSU group. Ego can be a bad thing, unless secured with legal papers. I have no respect for how Gracies' went about fabricating their crap, beginning with Helio, making it out to be more than what it is: JUDO NEWAZA. Personal vendetta? Better believe it.

The last BJJ blackbelt I had any dealings with was visiting our old dojo here in Ohio, back in 2007 when we were all in fatigues doing "combatives" during an open gym on a Friday night. We were working from worst case scenarios and fighting out--"slammed to the ground full force, being dominated: so now get back up on the feet and bug out or destroy the enemy." The BJJ asked if he could join in. I explained the drill and what the goal was--get out/escape or destroy the enemy. That was the goal.

I worked with him, so I drove into him at the start, and slammed this BJJ down with a single leg trip combo, or in traditional Judo, it is known as Kuchiki Taoshi (dead-tree-drop). When he hit the ground, he did a beautiful reversal on me and was about to perform ude hishigi juji gatame (cross body, straight arm lock) on me, so sticking to the drill, I countered his arm-lock, rolling into him, taking out my steel trainer, and proceeded to pseudo-disembowel and emasculate this BJJ blackbelt with my training knife I had concealed. He didn't like how that steel trainer felt, jumping up, and in all comic seriousness, yelled at me: "You can't do that!" And my reply was simply, "Well, I just did. Remember the drill? You reversed me. I got out of a bad situation and took care of business. You're dead or bleeding out, close to dead by now." He didn't get it, nor did he like the drill. Never saw him again in our dojo.

So I am not as narrow minded as you think. I have been active as a participant, student, competitor and instructor in Real Judo beginning in 1960 and own a Hachidan in this good ole fashion "crippler of athletes" Judo from Japan, which is still the parent art of all Brazilian Jiujutsu, however you want to market it and fabricate it.

I don't give two blasts of a trumpet for the main Gracie brothers, Rorion, Rickson, and Royce of the Gracie Jiujutsu. They were and are all slick businessmen, certainly not good Judokas. But hay, one can't argue Gracie successes. They have made millions off of their fabrications. Even the Army after Larsen's slick maneuvering with OIC, bought into it, and still uses it to the Army's detriment.

And until I see something unique and special about BJJ over real hard-core Judo and Free-style wrestling, then I will be impressed. So far, I will still remain loyal to my traditional Judo and folk/free-style wrestling for grappling, and my personal experience with dealing hands on with killing combat and horrific human violence from 1970 to 2005.

Oh, by the way, I have been wrestling since 1958...began when I was eight, and have coached wrestling and Judo both long before there was anything like UFC, that brainchild of Rorion, created as a slick business venture to promote his Gracie Jiujitsu as the cure-all to stand-up when he lived in Denver (1993).

I still teach both wrestling and Judo, among other things--withOUT glorified fabrications--just painful pragmatic reality. I absolutely refuse to coach or get involved in any organized, political sports group--which is worse than organized religion--any more. I have had enough of that nonsense. I cannot even watch UFC any more. Rhonda Rousey is the only good thing in UFC, today. Now there is a REAL Judoka. I'll put my money on her over any BJJ practitioner as she owns the entire grappling package.

So I do know grappling. It's my first and greatest love AND I am still not impressed by anything BJJ, and certainly not anything that comes out of the three oldest and main Gracie brothers.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 10:23:54 AM by RevBodhi »
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Dawg

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 02:20:05 PM »

I worked with him, so I drove into him at the start, and slammed this BJJ down with a single leg trip combo, or in traditional Judo, it is known as Kuchiki Taoshi (dead-tree-drop). When he hit the ground, he did a beautiful reversal on me and was about to perform ude hishigi juji gatame (cross body, straight arm lock) on me, so sticking to the drill, I countered his arm-lock, rolling into him, taking out my steel trainer, and proceeded to pseudo-disembowel and emasculate this BJJ blackbelt with my training knife I had concealed. He didn't like how that steel trainer felt, jumping up, and in all comic seriousness, yelled at me: "You can't do that!" And my reply was simply, "Well, I just did. Remember the drill? You reversed me. I got out of a bad situation and took care of business. You're dead or bleeding out, close to dead by now." He didn't get it, nor did he like the drill. Never saw him again in our dojo.

LOL! I can't help it; it always gives me the chuckles when folks say "You can't do that!" AFTER I've already done it! I've had several experiences that are similar to the scenario you described, Rev.

Don't know where the "narrow-minded" statement came from, though; I always enjoy reading your posts and don't think that at all.  ;D
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Hock

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 02:26:17 PM »

Hmmmm....
Putting two and two together and coming up with seven or eight....that sounds like the work of an old friend, Phil Porter....
http://www.judofromthebeginning.com/about.html

Hock


arnold

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2013, 06:58:47 PM »

Used to hear, "you can't do that" quite a bit, usually followed by "How did you do that"
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 04:23:35 AM »

"I believe in pure jiu-jitsu. Thatís what Iíve done in the past. You have to go back to your roots and train Gracie jiu-jitsu."

If someone really believes in pure jujutsu, shouldn't he join a traditional Japanese system?


I also never liked it when people referred to some current popular figure in the martial arts as "the greatest of all time."  For one, that leaves off anyone in the future.  Another thing is that it leaves out everyone in the past who the speaker has never seen, and I'm sure that many samurai who trained and fought their whole lives were pretty good at jujutsu.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2013, 04:34:16 AM »

The coach had total head and hip control, and once again the infamous Gracie BS (this time secured with so-called legal papers) of not tapping out to this former Olympic Judo coach's pin, making the match a draw. This was something Rorion no doubt learned from his pappy after Masahiko Kimura choked out and dislocated Helio's shoulder with ude-garami. Kimura stated in an interview that he didn't want to kill Helio, but because Helio refused to tap out, Helio's camp made it draw--even after Kimura dominated Helio from start finish. Some say that's toughness on Helio's part. To me, that's a piss-poor attitude over losing--not toughness). As far as Rorion's match with the former Olympic Judo Coach? I know this, as I was there at the match, and watched with my own eyes. BS was the word that kept ruminating through the Judo spectators. That no tap rule was never discussed pre-match.

I find those types of people to be very annoying and really hate training with them.  There was a sports martial artist who also trained in a dojo I trained at who refused to tap even when we were just practicing techniques and no one would "win" or "lose."  I'd have him in a joint lock and his face would be red and very tense and he'd be grunting from the pain and I'd tell him to tap it it hurt and he'd say stupid things like, "NEVER!" and then when I'd release him he'd act like he "won" a match when it was just practicing a technique, as if there was any good reason to refuse to tap.  He didn't seem to realize that the reason people let him go was that no one wanted to hurt him.
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Fletch1

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2013, 07:15:40 PM »

BJJ and GracieJJ is nothing more than Judo with an emphasis in Newaza. I remember Rorian when he and his Gracie horde lived in Denver. I lived in Colorado Springs at the time. Early 1990s.

Rorian was attempting to make a name for himself then. At the time I was associated with a group created by the former Olympic Judo Coach, and Rorian had offered a friendly challenge to this coach. Rorion was a slick dude, being a former attorney in Brazil, and had this coach sign a disclosure wavier that no matter how the match turned out the coach could not use the event in any way to promote himself and his group. I think Rorion knew something then.

Well, the former Olympic-Judo coach annihilated Rorion from the stand up game (remember, Helio made Gracie Jiujutu because he was so small and just lousy at the stand up game) slamming Rorion to the mat with a textbook Uchimata, and then proceeded to pin Rorion with a Tate-shiho-gatame. Rorion could do nothing to get out. In Judo, a 30 second pin is a win. The coach had total head and hip control, and once again the infamous Gracie BS (this time secured with so-called legal papers) of not tapping out to this former Olympic Judo coach's pin, making the match a draw. This was something Rorion no doubt learned from his pappy after Masahiko Kimura choked out and dislocated Helio's shoulder with ude-garami. Kimura stated in an interview that he didn't want to kill Helio, but because Helio refused to tap out, Helio's camp made it draw--even after Kimura dominated Helio from start finish. Some say that's toughness on Helio's part. To me, that's a piss-poor attitude over losing--not toughness). As far as Rorion's match with the former Olympic Judo Coach? I know this, as I was there at the match, and watched with my own eyes. BS was the word that kept ruminating through the Judo spectators. That no tap rule was never discussed pre-match.

I bitched the coach out for signing the document, but Rorion wouldn't go through with it unless the former coach signed it. And this former Olympic Judo coach really wanted to "fight" this brazen, up-and-coming new JIUJITSU group. Ego can be a bad thing, unless secured with legal papers. I have no respect for how Gracies' went about fabricating their crap, beginning with Helio, making it out to be more than what it is: JUDO NEWAZA. Personal vendetta? Better believe it.

The last BJJ blackbelt I had any dealings with was visiting our old dojo here in Ohio, back in 2007 when we were all in fatigues doing "combatives" during an open gym on a Friday night. We were working from worst case scenarios and fighting out--"slammed to the ground full force, being dominated: so now get back up on the feet and bug out or destroy the enemy." The BJJ asked if he could join in. I explained the drill and what the goal was--get out/escape or destroy the enemy. That was the goal.

I worked with him, so I drove into him at the start, and slammed this BJJ down with a single leg trip combo, or in traditional Judo, it is known as Kuchiki Taoshi (dead-tree-drop). When he hit the ground, he did a beautiful reversal on me and was about to perform ude hishigi juji gatame (cross body, straight arm lock) on me, so sticking to the drill, I countered his arm-lock, rolling into him, taking out my steel trainer, and proceeded to pseudo-disembowel and emasculate this BJJ blackbelt with my training knife I had concealed. He didn't like how that steel trainer felt, jumping up, and in all comic seriousness, yelled at me: "You can't do that!" And my reply was simply, "Well, I just did. Remember the drill? You reversed me. I got out of a bad situation and took care of business. You're dead or bleeding out, close to dead by now." He didn't get it, nor did he like the drill. Never saw him again in our dojo.

So I am not as narrow minded as you think. I have been active as a participant, student, competitor and instructor in Real Judo beginning in 1960 and own a Hachidan in this good ole fashion "crippler of athletes" Judo from Japan, which is still the parent art of all Brazilian Jiujutsu, however you want to market it and fabricate it.

I don't give two blasts of a trumpet for the main Gracie brothers, Rorion, Rickson, and Royce of the Gracie Jiujutsu. They were and are all slick businessmen, certainly not good Judokas. But hay, one can't argue Gracie successes. They have made millions off of their fabrications. Even the Army after Larsen's slick maneuvering with OIC, bought into it, and still uses it to the Army's detriment.

And until I see something unique and special about BJJ over real hard-core Judo and Free-style wrestling, then I will be impressed. So far, I will still remain loyal to my traditional Judo and folk/free-style wrestling for grappling, and my personal experience with dealing hands on with killing combat and horrific human violence from 1970 to 2005.

Oh, by the way, I have been wrestling since 1958...began when I was eight, and have coached wrestling and Judo both long before there was anything like UFC, that brainchild of Rorion, created as a slick business venture to promote his Gracie Jiujitsu as the cure-all to stand-up when he lived in Denver (1993).

I still teach both wrestling and Judo, among other things--withOUT glorified fabrications--just painful pragmatic reality. I absolutely refuse to coach or get involved in any organized, political sports group--which is worse than organized religion--any more. I have had enough of that nonsense. I cannot even watch UFC any more. Rhonda Rousey is the only good thing in UFC, today. Now there is a REAL Judoka. I'll put my money on her over any BJJ practitioner as she owns the entire grappling package.

So I do know grappling. It's my first and greatest love AND I am still not impressed by anything BJJ, and certainly not anything that comes out of the three oldest and main Gracie brothers.

"I slammed the BJJ down"

Your animosity towards the program is a little puzzling. Not sure where the Judo story comes from but it is always a little different every time it is told.

Far be it from me to stick up for Royce and the Gracies but their fighting prowess was tested in the ring and in one on one confrontations in Brazil. Is it overhyped? Yeah. Is it a perfect system? Far from it. It is functional as a stand alone system in a narrow spectrum of confrontations and it has had an undeniable affect of the way martial arts are trained these days whether you like it or not. The concept of positional dominance and the concept of the Guard as a platform of operations never took off with Wrestling or Judo so BJJ has made contributions to the fighting arts.

That being said, there are a lot of negatives associated with BJJ and its history, not the least of which is the less than respectful way the system gained its popularity and notoriety.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 07:18:52 PM by Fletch1 »
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RevBodhi

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 06:23:00 AM »

The history of Judo's migration to Brazil is well documented. When Kodokan Judo was taken to Brazil, the exporter was Mitsuyo Maeda, who at that time was known in the Kodokan as the number 3 man in Newaza. During this time (1914) Judo was known as Kano JiuJitsu and why Brazilian JiuJitsu is still Romanized in this fashion. I have one of the old Kano JiuJitsu texts.

Maeda visited throughout South America from 1914 to 1921 and opened a Kano JiuJitsu School in Brazil. From the age of 14-22 Carlos Gracie, son of Gastao Gracie, learned Kano JiuJitsu from Maeda.

All the Gracies really did, historically, for Judo/Jujutsu is open the stage for USA consumerism to buy into the Brazilian JiuJitsu/Gracie JiuJitsu hype, which was Rorion's primary interest (with promoter Art Davie) in 1993 with the UFC, to begin with. It made him and his brothers extremely wealthy.

Technically, Gracie's jiujitsu only brought publicity to Gracie's jiujitsu. The efficacy of Judo has never been in doubt. The US Military during WW2 wisely used Judo over and over and over again in their combatives training programs. Old school Judo has strikes, kicks, counter weapons work and is actually very punishing and brutal--a crippler of men--but it's hard to find such schools any more due to the emphasis placed on the Olympic sporting aspect Judo has followed.

As far as my personal animosity goes, (remember, I have been in this 'game' since 1958, and have observed all manner of hype) the entire MMA movement, beginning with Rorion Gracie and his Gracie Jiujitsu, promoted throughout the early UFC matches as 'the art to best,' has done far greater disservice in the realm of actual hand-to-hand combat training for a killing environment (foreign or domestic) than any other martial arts movement worldwide, worse even than the 80s Ninjutsu movement that predates Gracie Jiujitsu.

The number of falsehoods, out and out lies, and gross misinformation about what actually goes down, what is actually effective, and how, in close-quarters, hand-to-hand combat, in killing environments, such as urban warfare, is largely a product of what occurs in the octagon with 'untested in real combat' people then mistakenly attempting to extrapolate that sporting activity's technical essence in to what occurs and is needed in killing combat--all because "it is so real and bloody."

As bloody as it may get in this controlled environment of Brazilian Jiujitsu/MMA, and as well conditioned and trained as these athletes are: it is still not even close to what occurs in killing combat when the enemy is doing everything in his power to kill you, any way that he can, and the only thing to stop him is you killing him.

I find it really interesting that DoD persists in creating actual training paradigms for dealing with hand-to-hand at the killing level of operations, following commercial hype. They seem to want to stick with popular over pragmatic, rarely consulting actual operators who have engaged and prevailed in hand-to-hand killing combat. Yes, their numbers are extremely rare, but they still exist. And just because DoD uses something (Gracie Jiujitsu in the US Army Combatives Program, for example) as a training module doesn't validate that thing, person or entity as being pragmatic and useful. DoD's training catalog is filled with huge flops!

This is my source of animosity--the BS promoted as something real and useful in killing combat when it is NOT!!!!

My reply to those who defend Gracie Jiujitsu and Brazilian Jiujitsu beyond its athletic sports endeavor as being combat effective, is: "When was the last time you managed an enemy hell-bent on sticking you with an AKM spike bayonet, the surprise sapper attack over-running your position at night, and you use an entrenching tool to stop him, or the perp ready to jam that screwdriver into your bladder?"

In killing combat, not every fight begins standing, but every successful fight does end on the ground--because one of you is dead!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:33:38 AM by RevBodhi »
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ghostrider

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 09:59:43 PM »

It really all boils down to the brass tacks of what your mission is. What are you training for? What is involved in that training? Is it for sport, is it for self-defense for the citizen, is it for warfare for the soldier? Many argue for this and that, for their system's effectiveness. But is it really about the system, or is it about the individual? Only and individual can make it work for themselves. It is not the system but the man using the system. The system enables the man to express himself for the circumstances at hand. No one system covers everything, which is why a man combines, mixes what is needed, for the task at hand. Whether it is BJJ, Judo, or any of the hundreds of methods out there, the question is: What is your mission?
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SabreActual

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2014, 08:05:32 AM »

I met Rickson Gracie and interviewed / trained an afternoon with him many years ago. 

When I asked him what was his favorite technique he said "My SIG 220!"

Rickson was Royce's trainer up until Rickson got tired of the silliness going on in his own family.

He knew the deal and wasn't afraid to tell it like it was.  We published the interview complete with the 220 quote in Full Contact Magazine.
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JimH

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Re: A Gracie says
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 11:52:23 AM »

Some sayings from an interesting site which I and I am sure many of you would agree with:
 Truth does not sell as well as BS?

Combatives  are all Theory unless one has been tested and has come out the other side.

Nothing is NEW.

These saying fit the GBJJ system as created and marketed.

They changed what they learned from JUDO to Gracie Jujitsu and had the stories of all the street bouts and their never having lost line,lol.

Their art was never truly tested by them ,as in real confrontations,as every bout was contracted with their own rules,even in their supposed street bouts.

Their ,supposed,art is not theirs nor their creation,it is JUDO as taught from the ground as they were not good at stand up.
I Agree with Rev. Bodhi and have spoken in Simlar terms on this site and others in regards to Gracie Jujitsu,which is actually JUDO,as taught by Madea and which according to his book,Madea meant it never to be taught by the Gracie's. Their version is primarily Newaza,ground work as they are not good at stand up. They never even gave credit to Madea as being the one who taught them,until some inquired and Madea's book came out and they were forced to acknlowledge him.

Their art was to cover all bases ,sport,fitness,street and it does not,that is why a few years ago the younger Gracie's came out with a street defense version of GBJJ,but it is still mostly the same ground stuff.

Several of the Gracies even went off to study other arts to improve their fight game and specifically to improve their self defense,with Royce studying Hapkido.

my opinion
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