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Author Topic: police batons  (Read 7021 times)

dnelsen

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police batons
« on: January 19, 2006, 03:36:15 PM »

I've noticed over the years that there have been a number of "new" styles of police batons introduced. Each purporting to be the answer to all of our needs. First the straight baton in various materials, wood, plasric, metal etc. Then the PR-24 side handle .(tonfa) Then various companies making the expandable batons. Now the latest. The Rapid rotation baton.(variation of the sai) All claim to be the latest innovations yet all are copying martial arts weapons that have been around for centuries. I am looking for opinions on the advantages/disadvantages of the different styles. Most of the Police  programs are oriented toward what I would call stand alone techniques-remove the baton/or lose it in a fight and all techniques are gone. I studied Lima Lama for a number of years recieving my black belt in 1988. We were taught empty hand techniques first and then the weapons were introduced to compliment those techniques-to increase power and distance. Lose the baton and the underlying knowledge is still there. One advantage that I have seen on the street(I have been a police officer/detective for 29 yrs)is that people tend to fear what they don't understand. So the "newest" weapons tend to get some respect until the street figures out what it is you are using and how you are using it. I don't believe we will ever find the "magic" weapon that will resolve all conflict or have bad guys trembling and begging to surrender. We are the ultimate weapon. The rest are just tools.

DetSgt Dane Nelsen   
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Professor

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Re: police batons
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 06:34:47 PM »

I
 We are the ultimate weapon. The rest are just tools.

DetSgt Dane Nelsen   

Nice first post.....  Welcome to the nut house!

Prof
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Shogun79

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Re: police batons
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 07:13:34 AM »

As you said there is no magic bullet.  I've been a police officer for 20 years, and a DT/baton/use of force instructor for 18 years.  Most systems are simular in technique.  Everyone seems to think theirs is the newest/bestest thing out there.  I personally carry a PR-24CD baton.  I feel it gives me the best of both worlds.  It is small in diameter like a straight baton.  It is collapsible and sit on my duty belt well.  It has aside handle for better leverage.  As you weel know, there are disadvantages to carrying a side handle baton.  The handle can be grabbed, etc.   This is just my preference.  My department allowed officers to choose between the straight collapsible and the side handle baton.  Last year I certified or re-certified our department.  There are always going to be a debate.  My instructor is a PR-24 man tried and true.  My personal belief is what ever baton you carry, be proficient in it.  Just my 2 cents worth

Keith
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Hock

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Re: police batons
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 08:59:26 AM »

I think sticks will always be the step-child of martial arts training and batons/sticks will be the same in police work, especially when year-after-year, USA averages out the use of force events and impact weapons count for some 10% of use, yet wind up be some 40% of the law suits.

I have never liked the PR 24, but I don't like a walking cane with a handle either. The hooks just get in the way.

In police-insider groups and police supply-sales-people gossip, I hear that the PR24 "took a beating", its own beating after the Rodney King mess. All that footage seen worldwide of the PR 24 at lame work.

I started with a handless slick stick and really select that. There is a disorganized slow trend worldwide ignoring the PR 24.

Hock

410indashade

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Re: police batons
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2006, 06:29:50 AM »

Yes Hock, but I didn't see anyone in the Rodney King film using the PR-24 correctly.  I've used both as well as the trusty ole flashlight in good/bad old days and believe me one cudgel works about as good as another.  One thing I did notice about the early Monadock PR-24 they had a tendency to break at the point of attachment of the side handle.  This always seemed to occur about the time you were adjusting some hardheads attitude.   
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Hock

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Re: police batons
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2006, 08:27:02 AM »

A quick moment here on this somewhat controversial subject of  slick sticks (no handles) PR-24s and related Tonfas...

Police training with the PR-24 is also problematic because the police are not taught to use a stick or tonfa at its full and violent capacity. True value of a stick -with-a-side-handle (and a regular "slick" stick) is actually hidden from the police. A good tonfa guy can improve PR 24 police training. But wait! Why stop there? A good slick stick guy will improve that all even still - by sawing off the damn handle.

Recently I was told of a police PR-24 instructor that openly declared he could hold a PR-24 in his hand,

- hand on the side handle,
- stick along the forearm, sort of a like the classical block position.
- strike downward as though he was firing a hammer fist and strike

He said that this hammer fist motion was the hardest velocity possible with a stick, harder than a conventional grip and swing....(?)

This is ABSURD. The velocity of a conventional one-hand/one-end stick swing, far, FAR exceeds the speed and power than at the striking point of the handgrip like a hammer fist. Of course, you could swing the PR-24 from one end and have the same amazing striking power-BUT then the handle is superfluous (not used - for you folks in Rio Linda). May as well have a slick stick with no handle. This instructor is an uneducated dufus really, regurgitating something he learned in his PR-24 class (and probably with PR-24s and classes to sell) The other officers in the large class stood aghast at his proclamation.

I think next he will ask the baseball league to swap in baseball bats for large tonfas and let the hitters swing the tonfa at pitches? Wonder how many hits will go beyond bunts?

There are unofficial "whispers" in the hallway of PR-24 baton training where police learn the real survival tips of using the handle baton grip to maximize strike power. But why work harder and master secret tips? When the slick stick already does it first and easier? These tips will still never match the sheer power of a conventional stick swing.

It does not surprise me that slick, stick people and tonfa people criticize the PR-24 police training. But folks need to take one step back even more to make a criticism on the side handle? For every one reason someone (usually a classical tonfa guy) gives to have a handle, I'll offer up 5 or more not to have the handle.

Most handle-proponents, maybe almost ALL of them, have zero experience in grappling and ground fighting with a stick. Certainly they lack ground fighting experience. While these ranges LOOM in reality possibilities, classical people seem to NEVER experiment with these grappling and ground problems, opting instead for their classical stand-up doctrines. (oh yes, you see the occasional grappling pull down with the handle, but not the officer/karateka must turn the weapon upside- down in a split-second to get this pull, then revert it to finish?)

You get down on the ground and fight with PR-24 or Tonfa and that handle really gets in the way. So to with grappling. Almost all, if not all, Police riot squads and SWAT teams - have long abandoned the side-handle batons because they cannot safely take CQC action, positions and stances with that side-handle pointing out somwhere and nailing the other person or themselves, hooking on their gear, etc.

Another quick point on this "versus" subject. In the older days of the Dog Brothers, they would get some classical black belt guys with tonfas show up to park-fight, tonfa versus the slick stick. The tonfa guys were quickly obliterated by the slick stick swingers. Obliterated! We've tried this many times in my classes. Try this yourself in sparring, but make sure you have someone with tonfa experience, otherwise you will be confronted with the typical argument that-

"that person doesn't know how to properly use the tonfa!"

...and your experiment will be in vain. The Tonfa guys get busy swinging that thing around on its handle, often pre-occupied with trying to use the forearm block against a strike,then whipping it around to hit, working all the extra Tonfa tricks - meanwhile the head-bangers?...are just banging away! Also, go 3 out of 5, or 8 out of 10 rounds. Let the experiment develop. Today, someone showing up in the park with a tonfa, and trying to fight a stick fighter with a tonfa? This immediately considered suicide and just not done.

Oh, I already know the counter-arguements - "ohhh, If only Hock had been to the PR-24 classes" or "ohhh, if only Hock had trained with Grandmaster Chen, he would realize..." But, I have been to the police PR 24 classes. Also, been jacking around with Tonfa in years of Karate classes."

The PR-24's design comes from the tonfa. the Tonfa was originally an agricultural tool, used accidentally and desparetely, all in a desperate era as a nearby, handy weapon. This does not endorse it as a superior, selected weapon. It is shame to see this millstone tool somehow become a primary weapon in some agencies because it does seem to look cool and practical.

On the classical Tonfa today, people caught up in classical martial arts just hate to give up aspects of it for practicality. They try to force-feed old, outdated stuff into a modern applications. A pistol is better than blunderbuss and a smart fellow has just got to throw the blunderbuss away. Or you are a museum collector. Don't show up in Iraq with a blunderbuss. Hang it on the wall and let it go, or realize its a hobby-piece and be happy to play with it for exercise and fun. Keep your machine gun handy on the table-top.

To a moderately trained stick fighter, the side handle is more of a nuisance than a help, especially compared to a slick stick. A slick stick is way more versatile and easier to manipulate, strike, switch grips, grapple and ground fight with, than a stick with a handle. The handle...just gets in the way.

Hock

« Last Edit: September 07, 2006, 03:45:23 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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410indashade

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Re: police batons
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2006, 01:12:08 AM »

As I remember it, all the police using TLOs "tonfa like objects" in the Rodney King video wereusing them like a slick stick to beat his arms, legs, back and head (the head strike could have been accidental because the man was continuing to fight and struggle with 10 or 11 cops on him...) but I noticed nobody even tried to throw a lock on one of his appendages, something that can be done while the arm or leg is in motion with any stick of sufficient length for the particular part of the appendage you are trying to get a lock on.   
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Bri Thai

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Re: police batons
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 10:24:04 AM »

The side handled baton plays to the "mystique" factor more.  Everyone knew it looked like a martial arts weapon..... and no one really knew what that side handle was for.  So it MUST be good!

In my Force the first to get them were from what we call the F Division.  They cover Salford, which is quite a rough area in many ways.  These F Division guys turned up during major trouble in the Manchester City Centre, and merely DRAWING their side handled batons did the job - everyone was scared to death!

But that was over 10 years ago.  As time went on, the mystique lessened.  They also taught us all kinds of fancy twisty wristy moves..... but no one could get them to work for real.

After a while we were all fed up with this awkward piece of junk.  We're back with a straight baton now, and people are pretty happy with it.  And there's no more twisty wristy moves neither.
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Bri Thai

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Re: police batons
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 10:26:15 AM »

Just remembered - the side handled baton was used well once.  I was part of a Tactical Aid Unit team forcing entry to a house with some bad people inside.  I had a couple of guys around the back.

When one of the bad guys tried to escape out the back my guys turned their batons upside down, pointed them at him and shouted "Armed Police!  Lie on the ground!"  He did!  Haw haw haw!
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410indashade

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Re: police batons
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 02:59:49 PM »

Too bad you and "your force" were not trained on the PR-24 properly;

The side handled baton plays to the "mystique" factor more. Everyone knew it looked like a martial arts weapon..... and no one really knew what that side handle was for. So it MUST be good!

In my Force the first to get them were from what we call the F Division. They cover Salford, which is quite a rough area in many ways. These F Division guys turned up during major trouble in the Manchester City Centre, and merely DRAWING their side handled batons did the job - everyone was scared to death!

But that was over 10 years ago. As time went on, the mystique lessened. They also taught us all kinds of fancy twisty wristy moves..... but no one could get them to work for real.

After a while we were all fed up with this awkward piece of junk. We're back with a straight baton now, and people are pretty happy with it. And there's no more twisty wristy moves neither.
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Bri Thai

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Re: police batons
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 05:18:10 PM »

That sounds a little snotty.

The term "my force" merely refers to the police force in which I serve.  I think that use of language is quite common, and someone would only make an issue of it if they had..... well, issues!  Haw haw haw!

Actually we only got the PR-24 on the understanding that their own training package was adopted.

The baton was shit.

The training was shit.

But T.J. Hooker types might like it.

Waddaya say, T.J.?

« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 05:21:03 PM by Bri Thai »
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410indashade

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Re: police batons
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 07:15:56 AM »

Like I said before and I will keep repeating this because it is a personal mission of mine now that I'm retired to educate and enlighten the unenlightened.  And you appear to be amongst the most unenlightened among those who post here. "With apologies to all I offend by my remarks herein(except Bri Thai now):  I believe strongly in the 'whatever it takes to go home alive,' method of practical fighting. I realize this ethos is somewhat unpopular in the age of political correctness but there it is. This policy, protocol, or whatever you choose to call it is used with a few rules I try to follow whenever I am practicing and chief among them because I do mostly stick work is one cudgel is swung pretty much like another; use the short end stupid!"  I learned this from both experience and various black belts I have studied with.  I just don't believe a police officer can swing a baton without telegraphing his/her intentions.  In that respect the PR-24 has the same limitation as all batons when used as a cudgel.  But the PR-24 just like slick sticks of appopriate length has many other ways it can be tactically employed and some are unigue to it.  Some cannot even be employed with a tonfa.  My only complaint with it was that the early models 'Monadock?' tended to break with heavy strikes and they broke right at the point of attachment to the side handle.  And yet you tell me that your whole force was dissatisfied with it.  The obvious conclusion is that your force, unfortunately was trained by someone who didn't know what they were doing.   
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Bri Thai

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Re: police batons
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 07:44:20 AM »

I hope you're better at swinging batons than you are at being offensive.  Because that was pretty lame.  It was like the Systema of offensiveness... all slow motion and, well, inadequate!  Haw haw haw!

If you like the PR-24, that's fine by me.  I really couldn't care less!  Enjoy your "mission" you silly old sod!  Haw haw haw!
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