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Author Topic: knife hand  (Read 18145 times)

neljohn

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knife hand
« on: June 18, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »

Guys was just wondering what your thoughts on the WW II axe hand strike is? And has anyone ever used it, espesially to the side of the neck?

I know we can use forearms but wanted to know about striking with the hand.
Thanks
neljohn
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Canuk

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:15:44 PM »

Ive used the edge of the hand while applying brachial stuns, works well
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JimH

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 01:36:36 PM »

WWII ax hand strike or edge of hand strike is the same strike as found in various martial arts,was taken from martial arts and used in  combative systems used in WWI ,WWII and in Combat Judo which was used by many US Military units until around the late 1980's.

I have used the edge of hand to the side of the neck,if the right spot is hit ,against the right person,it works well.
Even in training with light contact it can cause the opponent to drop slightly to a LOT,if the correct area is struck.
Other strikes to the same area can obtain the same end result.
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whitewolf

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 10:04:21 PM »

Good defense-add it to your tool   box when training in close -WW
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Webby

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 01:56:43 AM »

Work's well if you think out of the box a bit. Step into your opponent, downward Shuto ( they used to call it the ' Karate Chop ' ), into the guy's chest it drop's his head forward and you turn the blow into a strike and push under his chin. Forcing his head back, your fingers extending into his eyes. It's a tactic from Ryu-Shinto-Ryu Ju-Jitsu. It's good if your fast and he's not the Hulk.
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neljohn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 07:52:02 AM »

Jim H

Would you say the correct spot is where the pulse can be felt in the neck? Would it then not be easier to use the forearm?


neljohn
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whitewolf

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 08:57:59 AM »

When you are  using the knife  hand and the action is  fast just aim for the neck  area -u  do  not have time to get the exact spot-just smack the  crap out of him-WW
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neljohn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 12:41:47 PM »

Hock
I think, if I'm honest that the WW II combative thing does kinda mistify me... I just think soldiers are the real warriors. Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow.

neljohn
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JimH

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 09:11:49 AM »

WWII combatives was created and taught in a 4-6 hours total.
It was Basics that worked alone or many times in combinations.

If I attempt to deliver an edge of hand strike on an attacker who is moving to me, and maybe I to him,the edge of hand may become an outside forearm strike.
Distnace ,movement,timing all change where the strike will land,or miss.

The knife edge ,as Hock said,tpo the side of the neck,if the artery is struck correctly,may lead to a knock out,or at least cause a stutter step in the opponent opening a door of opportunity for you.
If you know other strikes use them as well as nothing was written in stone,WWII combatives was a basic course with a limited amount of time to get usable information across.
So if your hand closees into a fist when delivering the knife hand it becomes a hammer fist,if the distance closes a knife hand becomes a forearm strike.

The knife hand is very versitile  but there is no need to be too specific ,as WW said just strike em.
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neljohn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 09:50:24 AM »

Thanks guys..Jim H you mention if the side of the neck is struck correctly...Can you explain the right way to do it?

neljohn
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Canuk

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 10:36:56 AM »

Brachial stun, plenty of videos on it, just google it. Lots of ways to apply it. lots of different reactions to it
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JimH

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 01:58:29 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eyqli2mbGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcaOr1TBA1w

As said, people have different reactions
The strike to the side of the neck/brachial stun can be obtained by any strike which causes a constriction  of the Blood vessel/blood flow.
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Webby

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 05:09:57 AM »

The real heart of combatives training was clearly to engender fighting spirit. You can't really expect troop's to be competent in a set of fighting techniques in the space of a few hour's of learning. However it would have ( hopefully ) really opened there mind's to the concept and ideas of '' All in Fighting ''.
The aggression is the key element here.   
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neljohn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 05:12:53 AM »

So the more important thing is if you see the throat in a life or death fight hit the throat with all you have....Would we all agree on this?

neljohn
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Canuk

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 08:48:21 AM »

You would be ill advised to target the throat at the expense of other high value targets. Take the throat if you can, dont hunt for it
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JimH

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 05:03:32 PM »

Webby,
if i may disagree that the sole purpose of WWI /WWII combatives and the follow up use of combat judo by the services was to create Fighting spirit.

If Fighting spirit were all that was sought in training then the military would have kept boxing and wrestling as they did in WWI or as the GBJJ/MMA of todays US Army are used.

WWII/FAS was geared toward engaging the enemy and ending the confrontation,stopping them from being able to continue on the field of battle.
Combat judo was also used to engage the attacker close in,hurt them enough to remove them from the fight and move on.

WWII/FAS and Combat Judo have finishes while boxing,wrestling ,GBJJ,MMA do not have finishes.

Fighting spirit may have been a by product but not the initial intent of the course.

NelJohn
As said by Canuk,do not hunt for the throat,take what they give you/what is available to you at a certain place in time during the conflict.

My opinions
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Webby

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 12:55:40 AM »

I did not say sole purpose I said at the heart of it, with the idea to create and promote aggression. The British Army for years taught, ' milling '. A step up gloves on, stright into it punch fest. The idea was to get people used to fighting, feel fear, pain, etc. It was wild, did it as an army cadet in the late 70's. Never to be forgetten. The idea was to prepare us for the real thing. If you watch baynotte practice for example theres a great deal of screaming and mental as well as physical aggression. It's about motivating people to have violence of thought and violence of action. The skill level come's with more in depth training and practice. They do that now, back in the day it was not done like it is now.   
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VicMackey

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 05:59:22 PM »

I will only use the knife hand for only front or side of the neck. Otherwise, I prefer the hammerfist for the groin and back of neck. This is just my personal preference only.
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Canuk

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 06:13:23 PM »

I'm a huge fan of the Hammer fist too
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Kentbob

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 10:30:03 PM »

I'm a huge fan of the Hammer fist too

I agree.  I don't see any target that can be hit by a knife hand that a hammerfist couldn't do the same job on, with less risk of injury.  Even if you're part of a martial art that does knife hand chops to the hands as a means of disarming, it seems like a hammerfist would be a much better choice overall.

Kent
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Canuk

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2012, 06:55:13 AM »

I find a lot of people wont train and dont use the hammer fist because it feels strange to them. I just cant seem to get it through to them that it requires practice to get used to it, just like anything else
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2012, 02:07:17 PM »

Back when I worked in behavior homes, the hammer fist was the overwhelmingly most popular fist for the residents to use in an attack.

Some of the same residents used the same technique whether armed or unarmed.  A hammer fist becomes the "Psycho Stab" when used with a knife, for example.

IMO it is probably a natural way for humans to hit.

That said, a shuto isn't difficult to do, and IMO is a better strike for the neck.
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Jumonkan

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2012, 12:31:18 PM »

I teach the ridge hand, Shuto, knife hand, karate chop or whatever else you want to call it as a basic strike as well. As for your question I'll answer if you don't mind. A ridge hand wouldn't be my first choice to hit an exposed neck in a life threating situation, I would punch the guy in the adams apple, then attack his eyes by putting my fingers in as far as I could get them, but thats me but yes give it all you got about half way between the ear and clavical and that should do the trick.

James
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Professor

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »

Guys was just wondering what your thoughts on the WW II axe hand strike is? And has anyone ever used it, espesially to the side of the neck?

I know we can use forearms but wanted to know about striking with the hand.
Thanks
neljohn

I MUCH prefer a hammerfist.  opinions vary.
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JimH

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 08:15:53 AM »

The fist ,closed hand position allows one to punch and or hammer fist.
The hammer fist covers more surface area ,so if one were to throw a hammer fist to the nose,a miss would still allow a strike to the eye socket,mouth,jaw,and deliver such strike with power.

The Ax Hand is a more defined striking area.
If the target moves or the strike is not direct the outcome may not be as desired.
The knife hand ,to me,also allows a strike with an open hand which may then be turned into a grab or hook.

Most tend to find the fist/hammer fist easier to use.

Webby ,
if I may go back to the last post you made about Milling.
I have done milling when I went through Royal Marine Commando School.Milling is Boxing mainly,with the purpose of getting people to fight.
No Finishes or killing technique just hitting and getting hit.
Combat Judo was for confronting the enemy and injuring him badly or killing him,not an aggression builder.(Boxing,Wrestling,BJJ,MMA are better suited for that,that is also what Milling does)
Combat Judo was not sport Judo ,is was Judo brought back to its roots ,Jujitsu.with strikes,breaks and kills.

Same as Bayonet training,it was to learn to use a tool to kill or injure the enemy at close range,not an aggression builder ,though aggression was used to get people to WANT to kill close in.Screaming and running in toward the enemy might cause most to stop and think,screaming sort of blocks out the thinking process and allows one to go forward when they other wise might not.
Pugil sticks were the Aggression building aspect of Bayonet training.Hitting and getting hit with padded sticks with a butt end and a bayonet end.(One on one,two on one,three on one) When you downed your opponent with the pugil stick you finished him off though,you smashed his face in with the butt or stabbed him multiple times with the bayonet end.
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szorn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 11:33:40 AM »

Webby,
if i may disagree that the sole purpose of WWI /WWII combatives and the follow up use of combat judo by the services was to create Fighting spirit.

If Fighting spirit were all that was sought in training then the military would have kept boxing and wrestling as they did in WWI or as the GBJJ/MMA of todays US Army are used.

WWII/FAS was geared toward engaging the enemy and ending the confrontation,stopping them from being able to continue on the field of battle.
Combat judo was also used to engage the attacker close in,hurt them enough to remove them from the fight and move on.

WWII/FAS and Combat Judo have finishes while boxing,wrestling ,GBJJ,MMA do not have finishes.

Fighting spirit may have been a by product but not the initial intent of the course.

NelJohn
As said by Canuk,do not hunt for the throat,take what they give you/what is available to you at a certain place in time during the conflict.

My opinions

Boxing and wrestling were part of military training during WWII just as they were for WWI. These things were not only about fighting spirit but physical conditioning and building athletic attributes.
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szorn

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2012, 11:46:57 AM »

I think many times we get too caught up in semantics as well as trying to over-analyze some of the tools and tactics. Personally, I like to focus on proper body mechanics and movement patterns rather than specific strikes. The mechanics and pattern of a knife hand is no different than hammer fist, forearm or an elbow strike. Generally speaking the targets are no different either. Learn the mechanics and movement patterns and let the situation determine which specific tool is used. Don't get too caught up in where these things come from, in most cases they were around long before WWII Combatives. Many people forget that the FAS methods are basics movements extracted from Jujitsu and Kung Fu and without those two arts there would be no FAS.

In regards to effectiveness of the neck strike- hitting the side of the neck between the mandible and the collarbone will a have positive effect regardless of which tool I choose to use. The key is making sure I make clear contact and then continuing to strike until the desired effect is achieved.

Steve
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Self-defense is a way of life, not just a hobby!

wait 4 me plz

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2015, 03:22:26 PM »

Back when I worked in behavior homes, the hammer fist was the overwhelmingly most popular fist for the residents to use in an attack.

Some of the same residents used the same technique whether armed or unarmed.  A hammer fist becomes the "Psycho Stab" when used with a knife, for example.

IMO it is probably a natural way for humans to hit.

That said, a shuto isn't difficult to do, and IMO is a better strike for the neck.

How would they apply the hammerfist? In like a big cycling motion bringing fist to knee?

Reason i ask is lee morrison made a dvd called caveman combatives in which he devised a compressed curriculum to which he taught to a military team that only had 2 days to learn something useful and he adapted it for civilian use. Having only 3 tools in the toolbox. Hammerfist, Seal Blitz & Knee. Hammerfist being the primary tool.

So in your opinion is the hammerfist a worthy tool?
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MilMak

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2015, 12:54:40 AM »

Hi wait 4 me plz.

I've trained with Lee (will do again) and he's a good guy. Hammerfist is one of the core strikes of his Urban Combatives curriculum, taught as delivered to the face via the fence etc (from my experience of it).
Others don't agree with this, here's a link to Neal Martin saying just that:

http://www.combativemind.com/self-protection-hard-skills/4-combatives-strikes-popular-useless-real-fight-video/

I personally would rather palm strike and FOLLOW with hammerfist IF it seemed applicable - hey, it's situational after all ;-)

What do you think?
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freeflow

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Re: knife hand
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2015, 11:17:33 PM »

Others don't agree with this, here's a link to Neal Martin saying just that:

http://www.combativemind.com/self-protection-hard-skills/4-combatives-strikes-popular-useless-real-fight-video/

Lets examine what Neal Martin is saying here.

Quote
The classic knife hand strike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8hLdz8aOjU
Documented on video knocking someone out as a preemptive shot.

Doesn't it make sense that something in every martial art going back to 16th century Germany would at least be effective for some situations?

(I can land a knife hand in sparring by the way, and I'm not exactly a great martial artist)

Quote
Front Hammer-Fist Strike

It's good enough for MMA.

Quote
Face Smash

https://youtu.be/eICBqtqL7IA?t=25s

Watch what this one clawed fingerjab thrown at low speed does to a guy. How much more force does a face smash have with this same hand formation?




This seems a lot like the argument emanating from some WWII combatives camps to the tune of "I'm not good at this, therefore it sucks and will get you killed".

What if there are simply a bunch of surfaces on your body that you can bang on stuff without hurting yourself, and then a bunch of sensitive body parts to bang them against? What if it doesn't matter how you strike as long as you're banging on the other guy's weak bits with your strong bits?
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