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  • August 22, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
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Author Topic: Gracie Groundfighting  (Read 2219 times)

Lone Wolf

  • Level 1
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  • Posts: 38
Gracie Groundfighting
« on: September 11, 2007, 08:49:42 PM »

     I just had a conversation tonight with a friend, LEO, and sometimes participant in my self defense class.  He was telling me about some things that our mutual jujitsu instructor had showed him from a recent Gracie Jujitsu for Law Enforcement class that our mutual instructor had attended.  One of the things he showed me was a variation of applying an arm bar.  Basically you have a suspect on the ground on his back and he is fighting you.  You, as the arresting officer are in a side mount and you decide things aren't going your way, so you plant both palms on his chest and pop up into a squatting position.  Then you procede to plop down into the UFC type arm bar.
     I commented that I liked the idea of popping up into a more mobile position but that if the guy is fighting and on his back, and I am squatting, knees are right by his head and it would seem the right time to start kneeing the head or pin the neck.  Or if things are really getting crazy then just disengage and go to the asp, taser, gun, etc.  But he persisted that this arm bar option was a viable one and our mutual instructor liked it and thought it would work.
     I then commented that the best concepts I got out of the whole brazilan thing was the idea of position, position, position.  But this guy is a veteran police sargeant with plenty of street experience.  Way more practical experience than me.  But he and other police officers, to include my old jujitsu instructor, who is a partime officer, believe that the Gracie submision thing is a valid last ditch plan.  I am at a loss as to how to convince them that there may be a better route.
     What should I be telling them?  I think I have tried all the usual aurguments but he says "Hey, if I need to I can break his arm".  This guy is a friend, lives right up the road, our kids go to school together etc.  And he has seen me go from white belt to black belt.  Maybe I am just the wrong messenger.  Or maybe I should not worry about it.  But for what it is worth, I do not teach a submission style arm bar at all in my adult self defense class.  What do you guys think?
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Milldog1776

  • Guest
Re: Gracie Groundfighting
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 09:48:32 PM »

What do you guys think?

I think that someday when you stop hitting your head against the wall...it will stop hurting. You will never convince them of the err of their ways. Don't worry about it.

I am also shocked to learn that police officers in your area are willing to pay for training! This is an incredible set of circumstances!
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JimH

  • Level 4
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  • Posts: 2020
Re: Gracie Groundfighting
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 06:30:42 AM »

I think that LEO's and Military instructors who push BJJ usage on the street have never done it with Gear on.
They believe that a ground based submission move  will get compliance but they never tell you how they will turn that into handcuffing and arrest.

If you are the lone officer and you have the suspect on the ground on their back,why would you drop into a arm bar?
What do you do when the suspect screams that they give in/up,Let go of the arm bar?
From the arm bar position how do you cuff the suspect?
(I guess you do like they recommend in the Army,and wait for help,lol)

Lets see you already have a situation where you ended up fighting a suspect,you were unable to draw your weapon,or deploy your mace or baton,now you are in position to get up, deploy one of your weapons yet you go for an arm bar,while lying on your back on the ground?

Who thinks of this crap??

I like the idea that as an LEO he has an opportunity to get up,establish a position on top and or stand up and draw a weapon,yet he says he will drop down and break the suspects arm if he has to till he gets compliance?
(Is BJJ the defensive tactics taught in the academy and authorized by the department for use?,if not it sounds like a potential use of unathorized tactics and a potential lawsuit to me)

The NYPD has trainers who are BJJ people and they wanted to bring BJJ into use on the department,they did attempt to teach it while in sweat suits,once they were told to do it in full Gear (full pistol belts and vest) they found that the gear created injuries and made it harder to perform the moves for ground fighting so the use of BJJ was shelved.

As a civilian the ground is the last place I want to be,as a member of the police department or military,having a weapon or weapons exposed the Ground is definately the last place I want to be,especially intentionally.
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WTAC

  • Aaron Warren
  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • WTAC Training
Re: Gracie Groundfighting
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 07:04:56 AM »

LAPD ran between 11,000 and 12,000 officers thru their Gracie BBJ course over a 3-4 year period. And after reveiwing use of force incidents and speaking with officers involved in incidents that went to the ground they found almost none of them used any BBJ techniquies. Reason they weren't practical or they just didn't feel comfotable (ie, remember them). BBJ can work in the LE world but takes alot of ongoing training and understanding. And unlike the people in this forum most LEO's don't and aren't going to practice. Hell its hard to get them to practice with their firearm(s) out side of work.
 P.S I agree that technique isn't a good choice for a LEO.
Aaron Warren

I think that LEO's and Military instructors who push BJJ usage on the street have never done it with Gear on.
They believe that a ground based submission move  will get compliance but they never tell you how they will turn that into handcuffing and arrest.

If you are the lone officer and you have the suspect on the ground on their back,why would you drop into a arm bar?
What do you do when the suspect screams that they give in/up,Let go of the arm bar?
From the arm bar position how do you cuff the suspect?
(I guess you do like they recommend in the Army,and wait for help,lol)

Lets see you already have a situation where you ended up fighting a suspect,you were unable to draw your weapon,or deploy your mace or baton,now you are in position to get up, deploy one of your weapons yet you go for an arm bar,while lying on your back on the ground?

Who thinks of this crap??

I like the idea that as an LEO he has an opportunity to get up,establish a position on top and or stand up and draw a weapon,yet he says he will drop down and break the suspects arm if he has to till he gets compliance?
(Is BJJ the defensive tactics taught in the academy and authorized by the department for use?,if not it sounds like a potential use of unathorized tactics and a potential lawsuit to me)

The NYPD has trainers who are BJJ people and they wanted to bring BJJ into use on the department,they did attempt to teach it while in sweat suits,once they were told to do it in full Gear (full pistol belts and vest) they found that the gear created injuries and made it harder to perform the moves for ground fighting so the use of BJJ was shelved.

As a civilian the ground is the last place I want to be,as a member of the police department or military,having a weapon or weapons exposed the Ground is definately the last place I want to be,especially intentionally.
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whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Gracie Groundfighting
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 05:03:51 PM »

All-in MHO if you are in engaging and have to  go to  the ground and are attempting to subdo the person and you try for a arm bar i think you might find yourself in a hell of a problem-his other hand is clawing you/he is trying to bite  you/he is attempting to get your weapon or his in a pocket etc etc
better to do what JimH  and others advise-
A few years ago myself and another security officer had to subdo a suspect in a robbery-the guy i was with was a former detective and when we were holding the suspect down to keep him quiet my partner reached up and grabbed the hair next to the suspects ear and pulled and twisted  it very  hard-the guy screamed and quite struggling-it worked------no arm  bar----stay  safe  whitewolf in kuwait.
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